I think the average person just simply doesn't care about their privacy.
In some of the music communities I’m in the content creators are already telling their userbase to go follow them on threads. They’re all talking about some kind of beef between Elon and Mark and the possibility of a boxing match… Mark was right to call the people he’s leaching off of fucking idiots.
I try, but at this point I think it might be too late. I’ve been on the internet pretty much my whole life and didn’t realize how big of a deal privacy was until I was in my 30s.
It’s more that the average person doesn’t have a clear understanding of what the cost is of not protecting your privacy.
The Internet is basically a privacy economy, where you sell your privacy in return for free services, and to most people this feels like a very one sided exchange. They’re giving away something that to them has no percieved value.
What privacy advocates need to get better at is actually explaining to people what the value of their privacy is.
Privacy is complicated and often a luxury. Not everyone has the technical understanding to protect their privacy, nor the money to always choose the privacy-conscious option (which are almost always paid options). And to be honest, they shouldn’t really have to if governments did their jobs and brought in effective privacy protection laws.
I think a big part is people don’t understand the impact of what they are losing. It’s not something tangible like their wallet or car being stolen, it’s just “information” and they don’t understand how that data can be used against them. Even when examples are given, such as the Cambridge Analytica incident, they think they are smart enough to be impervious to the manipulation so it doesn’t matter.
I feel like Cambridge Analytics stuff was about picking out who might be vulnerable to those types of political campaigns and by nature there’s probably a bit of a correlation between that type of vulnerability and a lack of understanding of why their privacy is important.
The people who recognise it’s important are unlikely to be the ones picked out by these groups anyway
Also anyone younger than probably 20ish has never known anonymity on the internet and so it’s hard to convince them to make sacrifices to convenience for something they’ve never had (and never will, no matter how much you try)
I feel like the average person doesn’t understand their options and doesn’t want to understand them because it’s difficult to them. When I try to help explain privacy issues to others, their eyes glaze over instantly. They don’t want their private information to be collected and sold, but they don’t have the attention span to learn about “tech stuff”.
The turning point for me when I really got a concrete realisation about people absolutely not giving a shit about this was when Snowden came out and I saw the majority of people just go "Eh, that's pretty fucked, whatever", and then immediately jump straight back into scrolling facebook all day long.
I realised then that there probably wasn't any point expecting anything from them. I don't have much sympathy left for people in this regard anymore.
Most people legitimately don't give a shit about this issue. I think that they really should, but they absolutely don't for the most part.
its perplexing when i talk to my siblings and realize how little they actually care about their privacy online, its almost if they enjoy giving out their private information to companies
If threads scrapes these sites and somehow links your account to your name, do you really want do recieve ads related to your complaint of an illness or condition? You should want to mantain privacy, or at least anonymity.
For the web scrapers, I, actual Hollywood superstar Margot Elise Robbie, stand by everything I’ve ever said on Lemmy that I would never say in real life, including the following:
Sam Altman and his web scrapers can scrape my Academy Award nominated dick. - Margot Robbie
The average person doesn’t understand modern technology even on a basic level. Most people don’t know what Free Software is or what end-to-end encryption is and you can’t have privacy without those two. And those things have existed for decades. What about more complicated topics such as cryptocurrencies or AI? It’s easy to see that most people don’t understand them either.
So when it comes to some basic aspects of modern technology, most people are decades behind. Sometimes I even meet software developers who don’t fully understanding those topics.
I think most people realize they’re too boring for anyone with access to individual info to care who they are. Do you really care to know what porn I look at or what I’m buying online at 3am on a week night?
They can try to influence your political opinions (manipulate you) by showing you certain type of content based on your current beliefs. They will show you content that is more likely to make you addicted to the platform. For some people that’s gonna be dangerous conspiracy theories or scams like alternative medicine.
Maybe you are immune to all of that, but many people clearly aren’t.
Kind of providing insight as to why most people don’t have any privacy concerns. I doubt most people consider that or think they’re so easily swayed. Heck, most people are practically apolitical.
Many people think they are not easily swayed, but in reality most people don’t have any training in critical thinking and often don’t know how to verify if something is fake. Things like confirmation bias make it pretty hard.
However, women using period trackers were free to do so in the US up into recently. Now that data can be subpoenaed and used to help prosecute if it is believed she may have had an abortion.
You never know when information posted online, or collected otherwise, could be used against you. It’s best to seek privacy respecting options whenever possible.
True, in that it’s a balance of risk versus reward. But there’s a middle ground between putting your SSN on a billboard and faking your death to go off the grid and burn off your fingerprints. I’m willing to bet 99.9% of people aren’t worried about it because they’ll never have to be.
What if I told you that you can increase your privacy a lot without having to fake your own death? You don’t even have to burn off your fingerprints! All you have to do is use alternatives to certain popular apps. Isn’t that great?
Just use Signal or Matrix instead of WhatsApp. Use Firefox instead of Chrome. At some point you could even replace Windows with GNU/Linux (an operating system that doesn’t spy on you! crazy right?). Some of those are tiny sacrifices, some are bigger, but none of them are impossible.
I get it. But I am experiencing absolutely zero drawbacks to any privacy concerns, so any potential sacrifice is almost completely unnecessary. I’ll support some similar things because I consider them good causes, but I have no problem being an open book. To bring everything back full circle, I assume most of the population feels similarly, and that explains why most people don’t care (which was what I was originally replying to).
If the only people with access to it don’t even know who I am, it’s pretty inconsequential, especially since I’m often not doing things online or with a phone or computer. Everything isn’t being recorded.
For a lot of people we don’t know anything different. So to a lot it’s making a ton of extremely inconvenient sacrifices to try to claw back something we’ve never had in the first place.
True, it should really be a foundational course now, and not just “here’s Microsoft office” level shit. With more advanced stuff left to collegiate courses.
Both programming in a high level language like python and A+ level CompTIA type thing.
Sometimes I even meet software developers who don’t fully understanding those topics.
“Even” software developers? That’s kind of a weird thing to say. Programming as a discipline is far broader and deeper than most people realize (and that includes software developers!). Knowledge in one limited specialty does not translate automatically into knowledge in a different specialty and, indeed, can actively interfere with another domain without intensive retraining. (For a concrete example of this, just look at the abominations made in “embedded”^1^ programming by people coming at it from writing Yet Another CRUD-backed Web App.)
So it’s absolutely possible for someone who’s a real whiz with making web app front ends to have a very hazy grasp of security and privacy. It’s a peripherally-related discipline at best.
^1^ “Scare quotes” used because I don’t view what amounts to a PC running Linux in a funky form factor as meaningfully “embedded”.
I just expect programmers to know more about software. They should know those things at least on a basic level. They should be the ones to educate people about it, because otherwise who will do it?
If software developers don’t understand what end-to-end encryption is, what hope can we have that an average person will understand it? I just don’t know how we can make progress if even technical people don’t know technology well enough.
I could (and probably have worked!) my entire professional life in domains you’ve never once caught a glimpse of using kit you wouldn’t recognize. To me it’s trivially obvious how to, say, debug an SPI bus timing problem where you might not even know what an SPI bus is without looking it up in Wikipedia first.
(I guarantee you that within 3m of you there are orders of magnitude more SPI connections than any form of encrypted connections.)
Now the only reason I know what end-to-end encryption is and why it’s important is because I took a short break in my mainline career and worked on PKI for about six years. (I then ragequit commodity software and went back to actual software engineering, but that’s a different story.) Had I not had that experience I could likely have made some guesses as to what E2EE entailed, but I certainly wouldn’t have understood immediately why this was a critical feature.
Really, software is a FAR LARGER domain than you think. Hell, it’s far larger than I think, probably, and I think it’s ten times larger than you think. 😉
You are right that it’s a huge field, but I’m not saying that we should be familiar with all of it. I’m saying that since we rely on software every day, there are a few concepts that every person should understand on a basic level. That knowledge would help them make better decisions and probably the world would be better if most people had it. Software developers should also understand those few concepts, but perhaps on a bit deeper level than an average person would.
A person can have privacy without knowing what SPI is, but it’s very unlikely for them have it or keep it long term if they don’t know what Free Software is. What you do requires deep knowledge of the hardware, which an average person doesn’t need to have. But they should know what cryptocurrencies and AI are, since those technologies are slowly becoming a part of our lives.
I don’t blame average people or software engineers for not knowing those things. But I think something went wrong in our society if people don’t understand very important concepts that impact our daily lives and which are mostly decades old. This proves that we can’t keep up with modern technology even on a basic level. Don’t you think that’s bad?
I’m saying that since we rely on software every day, there are a few concepts that every person should understand on a basic level.
Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong before anything software-related I’d put knowledge of fundamental statistics in the queue for things people deal with on a daily basis that they should understand at a basic level. It’s one of the most critical skills a person can have in modern life and it’s one that almost nobody (including almost all programmers) has any kind of understanding of. If they did have a better understanding of it, to quote the Great Sage Equalling Heaven:
That knowledge would help them make better decisions and probably the world would be better if most people had it.
😉
And that’s just the beginning of the list. I’d also put basic psychology, basic marketing, basic civics even ahead of any degree of software knowledge. Knowing marketing, for example, wouldn’t cause someone to be fooled to the point of saying something like this:
But they should know what cryptocurrencies and AI are, since those technologies are slowly becoming a part of our lives.
But gentle snark aside:
But I think something went wrong in our society if people don’t understand very important concepts that impact our daily lives and which are mostly decades old.
Try tens of thousands of years old. You make it sound like the problem is technology. The problem is the same as it’s always been: people. A better understanding of people, of their motivations, of the tricks they use to further those motivations, etc. is what makes you better able to manage life and society. Understanding the tricks of marketers and advertisers (even before those were words in human language!) is what makes you understand things like “hype cycles” and “if you haven’t paid, you’re not the customer”. You’re focusing on a single channel of abuse. There are MILLIONS of channels of abuse. Learning why people find said channels and how/why they exploit them is a far more valuable skill.
Oh, and statistics. You need that too. You have NO idea just how bad we are at those and just how important that knowledge is for spotting grifters, liars, and other scum.
Yes, there are many things that people should be taught at school. Technology is just one area. All of the things you said are also very important, but it doesn’t make what I said invalid.
Knowing marketing, for example, wouldn’t cause someone to be fooled to the point of saying something like this:
<pre style="background-color:#ffffff;">
<span style="color:#323232;">But they should know what cryptocurrencies and AI are, since those technologies are slowly becoming a part of our lives.
</span>
Fooled by what exactly? A distributed ledger or machine learning? I think it’s a simple fact that those technologies are becoming more popular.
You make it sound like the problem is technology.
The post is about privacy and software. It’s important for people to be educated in other areas as well, but they weren’t the topic of this discussion. So there was no point for me to mention them.
You’re focusing on a single channel of abuse.
I make software, so I talk about software. I’m not an expert in the other areas that you mentioned.
Ah, I see. So you are an expert in psychology, marketing and statistics. That is truly amazing. It’s completely irrelevant to the topic of our discussion (which is about privacy and software), but very cool.
The average person also doesn’t care about their own right to free speech or their right to bodily autonomy or agency over their own lives.
There’s people out there that jumped at the chance to have an ID chip put under their skin and to have a QR code associated with all their identity info.
People don’t realize the threat of centralized supreme authority that’s accountable to no one. And it’s really sad.
I get downvoted for being in favor of free speech, because I bring up free speech rights whenever someone says something bigoted. If you don’t support the free speech rights of the people you hate the most then you’re against free speech. Censoring a bigot is only going to make them double down on their beliefs. But reaching out and having a civil conversation with a bigot can make them realize that the people they hate are going through the same problems they are.
Everyone gets fucked on their taxes, everyone is getting a lower wage than what their employer could give, everyone is paying more rent than they should, everyone is paying a higher interest on their debts than they should.
You’re not getting downvoted for protecting freedom of speech lol. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that you’re entitled to having every platform ever politely entertain your opinions. It protects you from the government and that’s it. There’s nothing else. If you express a racist opinion and people go after you in the comments they’re completely within their rights to do so. If you roll up at that point and try to defend them… Well, you’re not defending freedom of speech are you? They already said what they were going to say freely. At that point you are quite literally defending a bigot and asserting that they should be able to say what they want without consequences.
No, that’s just completely unreasonable. Nobody should have to be inconvenienced to make room for opinions that go against a healthy society. Bigots are not and hopefully will never be entitled to inject themselves into spaces they’re not welcome. Nobody is stopping them from showing up most of the time but you’re crazy if you think everyone should feel obligated to treat them with respect. You’re not just automatically owed any level of decorum because you have an opinion and decided to share it with others. I dont want to end up like the UK locking people away for saying an offensive word but I also absolutely refuse to make room for racists and pretend that their views matter. Because they don’t.
Racists are free to have their opinions and everyone but the government is free to shit on them as much as they want as long as there’s no calls for violence etc. Society can and should regulate itself and chasing ignorant bigots back under their rocks to die is something we can all work towards. If they fester then we lance the boil eventually. It’s whatever. But I’ll be damned if I’m gonna ever make room for their ugly, small, pathetic and worthless hate without telling them where they can shove it.
I often think this as well, however I take the continual attempts at nearly every possible turn to syphon yet more personal info as a sign at least someone doesn’t have it yet and wants it and maybe I can stop them getting it and also I think these operations that suck up and sell or otherwise exploit your data need a continuous flow rather than simply a finite set.
What they have is probably useful but actually to a certain extent it probably isn’t of much use without more data constantly coming in. Organisations like Google or Facebook would have such a large proportion of the planet represented in some form in their databases that it that were enough it’d basically be mission accomplished and they’d have no growth opportunities. I can probably never really know, but it looks like they need you to keep interacting with their services to maintain useful profiles of you and the rest of their hoardes and if they didn’t get it your data would be essentially stale at after time.
I stopped using Facebook 10 years ago, but I’m loathed to actually delete my account because every once in a while, a long lost friend or relative contacts me there. It would be a shame to lose touch with people. Ultimately I care about that more than privacy. It’s the same with Whatsapp. I’ve made a concerted effort to convince my immediate family to try XMPP, Delta Chat and Signal, but they just won’t install another app unless everyone they know is using it. I find it a bit frustrating, but that’s reality. So I have to keep using Whatsapp.
We can always keep a never in 10 years updated profile active for family and stuff. The biggest danger is for active users after all: they’re the most vulnerable to targeted media manipulation.
By being present in their lives (while giving up as few data as possible to big corporations) they can have by their side someone with good advices on privacy, manufactured consent, rights violations and adjacent topics. Alienating ourselves from them isn’t really beneficial in the long run.
I use WhatsApp as well for the people I keep in touch with, and have an active Instagram account where I use only the chat feature. It’s enough to keep up with the people in my life.
For whoever is even more privacy concerned, it’s possible to run those apps in sandboxed mode through some apps.
I use WhatsApp as well for the people I keep in touch with
And everyone in your address book not using WhatsApp should come by once in a while and slap you for selling their numbers for your convenience… You are right… keeping a basically inactive Facebook profile is harmless in comparison.
They all are already on WhatsApp though. All my phone contacts are WhatsApp contacts already (and have been before I added them).
If I need to interact with anyone who desires ultmost privacy I’m not idiot enough to ask for their phone number, and they’d be really out of their mind to share if that’s the case.
But sure, I guess a cousin or smth might want to slap me in the face for “selling” data they already sold themselves years prior.
Same here… and most of my contact list (and I) dropped WhatsApp when Meta bought them or a year later when the eavesdropping and phoning home to Meta was publically discussed in the media. The remaining minority is able to use another alternative on top of WhatsApp (that’s one of the reason I like to remond them that they provide Meta with data from the people opting out…). That was also nearly a decade ago (2014/2015), so pretending that you need to use WhatsApp in 2023 is indeed a choice.
pretending that you need to use WhatsApp in 2023 is indeed a choice
It’s not as easy as you make it sound. Between 2015 and 2022, Whatsapp’s marketshare has increased a lot in Germany. So it might’ve been comparatively easy to drop it 8 years ago. It’s not anymore.
Maybe I’d be able to convince a lot of my friends to install another app just for me. But it would be hard to do and involve a lot of arguing on my end. I’m not a missionary and I choose to spend my lifetime for other, more important things.
Or maybe you would realize that a lot of people think the same but are also convinced to be alone and unable to change anything… Just like it happened for me back then the moment the first few made the effort to change. We will never know.
Everyone has to chose what’s right for them. The reality is Facebook having and selling that data will never impact the average person. But not be part of the family because you are not on Facebook is a real thing that will affect people.
This isn’t choosing what’s right for you. This is having no standards. Most of our society is like this when it comes to software for no good reason. Think how much better the world could be if people cared.
That’s why those platforms still exists and why many of us still have to use some of them even if we don’t want to. I don’t want to use YouTube for example, but I have to, because creators won’t switch to PeerTube. They prefer to be abused by a corporation than to try to change something.
This is what Zuckerberg keyed in on early internet days. Tech savvy users understand what is at stake, but to the average user, it gets in the way of using apps that people socialize on. It didn’t matter how much preaching I did back in the early days. Eventually people fall in line and do what their friends do.
Nobody cares. I mean, have you seen armature porn? That used to not be a thing on line, once upon a time. Nobody cares anymore apparently, because there’s a sense of anonymity in a large enough group.
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