You can only use your account to log in to your instance. And the mastodon app only supports mastodon instances and jerboa is only for lemmy.
You can use the fediverse to interact with content from mastodon and lemmy from your home instance on kbin. For example I am writing this comment from lemmy.
sure, but I thought ActivityPub is a common protocol they all use to allow interoperability.
Like an API, where there are users, posts, images that can be created, liked and boosted.
I.e logging in to a mastodon app would allow me to create /browse madtodon-specific posts (microblogs), and logging in to pixelfed app, would allow me to only upload/browse images, etc...
ActivityPub has 2 parts: The Server to Server API (S2S), which is how instances communicate and is the backbone of federation. and the Client to Server (C2S) API, which is a way for instances to communicate with an app/website. Unfortunately, mastodon made the decision early on to go the proprietary API route instead of using the C2S for app development. The rest of the microblogging fediverse had to implement the mastoapi so that they could share app support. Lemmy and kbin don't use the mastoapi, which is why they aren't compatible with mastodon apps and they don't even implement the same API so their apps won't be compatible either.
Ideally, lemmy and kbin will migrate to a common API so their apps can be compatible. Even more ideally (and the original goal of the protocol), lemmy and kbin would use the C2S so that they could work with standard AP apps that also work with any compliant AP service.
aah, thx for the detailed explanation... So everyone doing their own thing, kinda defeats the purpose, or at least makes it harder for app developers to take care of all the different apis
Yes exactly. If we want universal apps, we need to convince implementers to use the C2S. I also think the huge push to get native apps for kbin/lemmy was way too premature. I'm worried that's gonna lock in their current APIs and make transitioning to the C2S even harder.
Identity federation isn’t the main point of the Fediverse, though. Federation is just meant to distribute content and facilitate communication. So you can have a book blogger manage their reviews and bookshelf on BookWyrm, a vloger can upload a video on PeerTube, and a city government can share water outage updates on Mastodon, and someone can interact with that content from a single interface and account of their choice.
I don't know anything about Bluesky, but this has nothing to do with account portability. ActivityPub doesn't easily support account portability; your account is always on a single server. There are mechanisms to move your account to another server, but they're incomplete (you can't migrate your existing posts, etc).
The C2S is about allowing native apps that can work with any ActivityPub implementation. So in an ideal world, you could use a single app to access lemmy, kbin, calckey, pleroma, hubzilla, mastodon, wordpress, etc.
I was initially put off by the UI of Lemmy that I encountered when I first went to the Lemmy site. I was a little confused as to which instance to join. That's when I stumbled upon kbin.social and that's where I landed my new account. Overall I am most comfortable here.
Since joining, I've encountered Lemmy posts that take me to their instances proper, and the formatting looked different, more like here just with a different colored background. Overall, Lemmy instances seem okay, I just like it here better.
Maybe it's the overall familiarity with the instance, calling main topic pages "magazines," the microblogging option, etc. Lemmy's resemblance is a little closer to Reddit, so that might account for why people decided to go there instead of a kbin instance.
And those who were stubborn enough to keep looking at all options despite what could easily feel overwhelming to a non-tech user.
I am not very tech-inclined, so trying to understand the fediverse as a whole felt like very deep water, and lemmy really didn't do any job at all at explaining what it was I was committing to by choosing an instance when I didn't even know what instances were and had trouble finding out.
Since Lemmy was and is by far the most mentioned alternative and I found it too anxiety-inducing, it's mostly stubborn desperation that brought me to kbin. Which says nothing to how much I'm genuinely enjoying it here, to be clear, I was just relieved to have a simple option at that point.
Being made anxious by a new platform isn't great and I would guess that most people who didn't like the experience they had with Lemmy didn't bother clicking other links that would take them to the same fediverse. They're likely to assume they won't enjoy that one either, and resign themselves elsewhere.
So kbin naturally got fewer users just by word of mouth, and then the necessary brief isolation didn't help either when people were still getting comfortable and testing out different accounts. I don't particularly mind it other than those rare times I'm accidentally excluded, either by a question addressed only to Lemmy or their recent version of r/place disappointingly being incompatible with kbin.
Kbin is about 3 months old whereas Lemmy is about 3 years old. Kbin simply wasn't ready for growth, and still has a few major feature shortfalls. Lack of API access is a big one.
Because Lemmy is older and already has a lot of established communities. Kbin saw the larger growth rates though (in the context of the recent Reddit drama). Kbin also currently lacks native mobile apps, and a lot of people browse this type of media form their phones.
Regarding the articles: tech journalists all use microblogging sites like Mastodon, so for them Kbin’s microblogging integration is a major advantage. Also, IIRC Kbin made it easier to follow certain people, like industry leaders, while Lemmy is more focused on communities.
Personally, I really dislike microblogging, so for me it was a major reason not to use Kbin. I think there may be a large silent group that feels the same way, but I haven’t seen any statistics on this.
This is true, but twitter also has an opaque algorithm to choose what appears in your feed. By default Mastodon only allows you to view your feed in chronological order, so there is an argument to make that kbin allows a more twitter like experience...
I do also get there is a steeper learning curve with kbin, and it's basically still only an alpha release (it's clearly not going to be right for everyone).
Honestly, this is really good to hear! More mainstream accounts will definitely get the fediverse a bit more credibility.
And here's a bit more from BBC:
The team at BBC Research & Development are researching social technologies and exploring possibilities for the BBC. One part of our work is to establish a BBC presence in the Fediverse.
This is an experiment - we will run it for 6 months, and then look at how much value it has provided, how much work it requires to maintain and then decide whether and how to continue. We're learning as we go, and we'll write about what we discover in the hope that it might be useful for others. The BBC will continue its normal social media activity in the usual places.
We're starting off small with just a handful of accounts from R&D and our colleagues at BBC Radio, but we hope to be adding more accounts from other areas of the BBC soon:
FYI to anyone who doesn’t realize, you can follow each of those @names individually or just use the url https://kbin.social/d/social.bbc to subscribe to all social.bbc posts in kbin
Sorry, I’m a little new. I tried to sub but it brings up a login for Kbin. I created my account on .world. Will I be able to access this community w/o making a new account?
You can through kbin! There's a nice discussion of it here.
You can add their name to your kbin url like this: https://kbin.social/d/social.bbc. It should open the page as if it were a kbin magazine and have a subscribe button. After that, you should see it when you browse your subscribed threads (although it seems like it won't appear in your list of magazines).
I’m not surprised. While I’ve created quite a corner of an online life for myself here, in the back of my mind there’s always the thought that I’m half a step from being misunderstood and reported, banned, or at least least dumped on.
I’ve encountered a bit too many people here who are paranoid and apparently only looking for the worst in everyone else. And since I’m probably older than average, and from the eastern half of Europe, I’m just more used to using abrasive language sometimes without needing to constantly announcing my tolerance for some particular selection of specific things that happens to be in the news this month. That’s obviously not the preferred vibe here.
I’d be interested on peoples views on a concern that I’ve had growing for a while; maybe the concern is genuine, or maybe I’m being paranoid. But I feel that some of the more extreme ‘pro-trans’ conversation online feels less ‘pro-trans’ and more ‘anti-terf’ or even ‘anti-everything’ to the extent that it has become impossible to have a discussion about concerns, confusions, genuine ignorance etc, in other words impossible to educate or come up with solutions to genuine problems.
A lot of these extreme trans, conversation destroying comments are so full of hate, so often, that I admit I have become suspicious. If you were deliberately trying to divide a community from potential allies you couldn’t do it better, and I’ve seen one too many ‘as a black woman’ comments accidentally posted from the wrong account by some white as a lily racist extremist man to trust everyone who says ‘as a trans person’ online.
I would like a space where people with genuine curiosity but also genuine concerns (as in, that they have the concern is genuine, it doesn’t mean necessarily that there is a genuine problem that needs resolving) could have an adult discussion to educate and understand each other, in order to find solutions, without having to worry about being cancelled and shut down.
If you’re on the fence and it feels like the only people who listen to you with respect and sympathy are the anti-trans people, well, you’re going to end up hearing a lot more of what they have to say than learning something actually useful.
I understand that the trans community must get frustrated with having to explain themselves all the time, and impatient for the day they don’t, and it sucks that that’s the world we live in right now. But I’m also very concerned that we should be cautious about accepting every hateful or insane sounding ‘as a trans person’ comment we read at face value. Hatred leads to the dark side after all, and that’s where some people want you to be.
That said I’m not trans, or even pretending to be trans, so I can’t speak for the community. I just believe strongly in the adage that the most effective way to win support is to meet hate with love, and I know a growing number of people who should have been trans allies being turned away by the feeling that they are not being listened to or taken seriously. Even if their concerns feel stupid to be people in the community.
Oh also, whilst I think people should be taking genuine concerns seriously, be careful of ‘whataboutism’ so hey, fun tight rope.
That’s my paranoid ramblings for anyone who cares from someone who wants to see tolerance and understanding but is scared we’re going the wrong way.
If you’re on the fence and it feels like the only people who listen to you with respect and sympathy are the anti-trans people
This is what people just don’t seem to understand. The “you’re 150% with us and declaring it on every turn, or you’re against us” rule just makes completely normal people end against them.
This really goes for every kind of issue that may come up, not even just for the typical “left-right” feud bullshit.
The thing is, it’s not even required to be nice and keep explaining shit or whatever - there’s always the option on an individual level to just ignore stuff.
Like with the joke in this story - no, you don’t need to be the police to immediately report and flag everything that’s 10% over the line. You don’t need to see red all the time. Just ignore it and move the fuck on, you’re not getting any extra social credits for beings overly sensitive and protective.
The obvious counterargument is “well if you ignore everything, they win”, but that’s still just the same paranoia, the same dividing between us and everyone else, the same overprotectiveness. You don’t have to let everything pass, that doesn’t mean you have to police everything everything either.
Besides there will always be a ton of people willing to do online vigilantism, so you’re really totally fine to just ignore most things and not run to the mod about everything.
It’s like those zero-tolerance policies in some schools (American schools of course, where else) where forgetting a pink plastic water gun or a nail clipper in their backpack can get a 10yo kid arrested and expelled. It’s not helping anything, it’s not addressing the actual problem, it singles out random people as examples, and it just makes everyone hate you.
be careful of ‘whataboutism’ so hey, fun tight rope
If I see someone using the term whataboutism, I know there’s no discussion to be had with them. Another originally sensible word that has been destroyed by overuse. I’ve been accused of whataboutism by just adding some extra information about a game console history. Holy shit. You can tell that person’s entire mission in life is to just scope the internet of any sign of disagreement about anything they find holy, no matter how trivial.
The problem is that the well has been poisoned. Simple fact is that whenever someone says "I just have concerns", nine-out-of-ten times, they're just trolling you.
And I've been involved in this conversation for years, on a couple of different forums, trying to explain things that trans folks go through. And to this day I still do my best to always give people the benefit of the doubt if they seem sincere.
But I'm not at all exaggerating when I say 9/10 times it's just someone JAQing off, and within a few posts they're accusing trans people of being a danger to women or children.
This is combined with the fact that a lot of the "reasonable" compromises cisgender people come up with, just aren't at all reasonable from the perspective of the transgender people they would affect. The compromises usually involve denying life-saving medical care, or involve basically accepting being ostracised from public life.
Finally, cisgender people just massively outnumber transgender people. So while for any one cisgender person, this might be the first time they've ever asked anything about the topic, the trans person has likely been asked dozens if not hundreds of times. Many of which were in bad faith.
So a lot of trans people have checked out. For their own mental health.
From kbin- how do you see a list of communities on lemmy.world? I've been navigating to https://lemmy.world/communities in a separate browser window to discover communities to individually search/subscribe to from kbin.
Go to https://kbin.social/magazines and turn on local and federated, then hit the search button. For some reason all the top "hot" are kbin but the "new" and "active" are various.
Then if you specifically want, say, lemmy.world, type that into the search field and hit search again. It will all show.
Yea, a lemmy instance will show the same kinds of results for federated communities but there is no substitute for viewing the local communities from that instance.
Click on the tab Magazines at the top, select local and federate, put lemmy.world in the search box to see all lemmy.world communities. If you want to check for community with certain keywords you can try putting [keyword]@lemmy.world. It can search for the keyword in both the name and description, but not extensive as if you'd search on lemmy.world.
This can use some improvement, but it's not a Kbin problem though, since Lemmy is even worse when it comes to searching for communities outside each instance.
Ah, I see what you mean now. In that case I don't think you can do it on Kbin natively rn. There is this website though, which might help a bit. At least imo it's easier to use. https://lemmyverse.net/communities
You can just filter for only lemmy.world. When you find a community you want to join you'll have to type the handle of the community in the search icon to the right rather than in the Magazine tab for communities that doesn't already have a copy on your instance.
The article specifically says you can't search federated communities from kbin, but you can from Lemmy. This is just incorrect, both allow you to search local or local and federated.
Sure. Just look at Wordpress... it's a blogging platform rather than a forum, but it has an ActivityPub plugin available that allows federation of blog posts and comments. ActivityPub is a standard published by the W3C (the same organization that oversees the HTML standard, among many others). Anyone can implement the standard in their software if they want to.
The interesting thing about Twitter is how it shows how a significant part of our society works. It is kind of about amplifying fame and suggesting that we should all cares about meaningless 240 character posts or what these guys think.
That news media types love Twitter is kind of an indictment of how news works.
That's not really true. When it first came out, before the ads, before the algorithm, when they embraced 3rd party apps with an open api, it was really great. It was full of techy personalities and interesting folks. Hashtags were fun to follow, live events were amazing in real time, so much more. That was before it got inundated with politics and celebrities though. I think that honeymoon phase only lasted a tiny while, then it all went downhill into the outrage machine pretty quickly. But for a quick minute there, it was glorious.
Twitter was also an important tool for journalists and researchers worldwide. Military targets have come from Twitter posts. It is a reflection of a huge chunk of society. You may as well call all of internet technology "just a porn box" for how wildly over generalized that statement is. The reality is your generalization comes from arrogance. "I never engaged in such frivolous behavior". You're here now. Yes you have and yes you do.
Even your comment is the first cousin of outrage, it's pure disdain. Nothing more or less, and exactly as valuable as outrage.
Giving reddit exactly what they want, huh, a huge influx of traffic?
They know this shit hypes people up. It gets the app installed... then it's not so bad to just keep it and browse it at that point. Then before you know it, spez was right. It blew over. He can treat his users like shit and they'll just take it like good little idiots.
No thanks. I don't intend to prove that asshole right.
Another, more complicated, possibility would be to include a user editable wiki with each community
This would be my preference. Given some of the big tasks that still need to be done (advanced moderation tools, for example) adding a wiki is relatively trivial - you can piggyback off the existing user authentication and markdown regular expressions which are all the diffcult bits. I wrote my own wiki 10+ years ago and it was pretty straightforward.
I'm thinking more in terms of syncing and storage. It all depends on how it's implemented. Does each community have a wiki that's synced with individual users' wikis? A separate wiki per instance? How to handle edit conflicts, etc.
You're right that just making a wiki isn't too tough, but in the case of decentralized, editable, moderated content, it's probably different enough to warrant an approach significantly different from a traditional, single site/many edit centralized version.
(We could always temporarily have a centralized wiki and roadmap out the transition later, too.)
Yes, the technical aspects are straightforward, the conceptual ones might need a bit of chewing over.
The way I see it, each community would have their own wiki but an instance could also have its own wiki for FAQs and the like which would then also act as the top level, linking to all the different wikis so it would appear as one cohesive wiki. Admins could edit any page, moderators could only edit their own wikis. You could either have a system to allow users to submit a draft edit or you could do that in a post in the community. Unlike, say, Wikipedia, there probably wouldn’t need to be large numbers of edits to a page in quick succession, so community members could thrash out a proposed update or addition in the discussion.
So, for example, I started a Home Video community and so I might want one page for a list of boutique Blu-ray releasers and another for a guide to buying a multiregional Blu-ray player. Over on Reddit I created a list of third party suppliers of STLs for the game Star Wars Legion that was well-received (which reminds me I must copy that over) which could be worth a page. Those pages would tend to be relatively static - only getting an update if a new Blu-ray publisher or STL maker popped up.
There are lots of details to be ironed out if we go the wiki way, which is why I think the tagged route would be the best start. Start getting the data and develop the larger structure over time. Once we need the data to populate the wikis/dbs/whatever, any mod can filter the posts pretty easily.
Other problems I see happening - conflicts between mods on entries, keep or throw out entries when an instance defederates (the c/politics folks might not want the entries on Biden being a lizardman from Nova Scotia, but c/iliketohitmyheadwithbricks does), bad blood if some mods want tighter control over wiki content, syncing when federating impact if larger media elements added, multiple wikis covering multiple topics while there are multiple instances covering multiple topics (multiplicative duplication due to the multiple hierarchies of equal importance), and I'm sure plenty more.
which is why I think the tagged route would be the best start.
I think we’d need to do that anyway as a stop-gap measure because you could start that right now. If there’s a will for it, a wiki could be thrown together quickly but there’d need to be testing and the developers of Lemmy would want to be assured it won’t break anything or leave a security vulnerability.
If correctly formatted, the content could then just be scooped up and used to populate a wiki when it arrives.
Other problems I see happening
A lot of those are federation issues in general - for example, the wiki would be clearly part of another instances community, so a post about Biden being a lizard in a humansuit and a wiki entry on the same topic would be essentially the same.
I totally agree on the first point, and might have a response in this thread stating much the same.
On the federation/syncing, I think it might need a more unique approach. Communities already have the problem of multiple posts linking the same article across several instances and communities, which don't sync comments. Making sure the complete wiki for a given community is resilient to instances defederating, shutting down, or vandalizing should be top priority, IMO. I don't know what the solution is, but I think we should be open to it looking different from the basic Lemmy sync setup.
For example, the wiki/extracted posts don't really need to sync as quickly as thread comments. Also, there should be some form of versioning in case of a credentials bug, hack, or intentional mass deletion or vandalism. We could aggregate points of conflict between instances/communities in a topic's main thread/stream/article and assign some for of weighting alongside the choice to continue reading from a particular wiki, which are return to the original thread/stream/article.
So, in the Biden-lizard example, the primary Biden entry that's synced everywhere could have a "Controversy" section with generally agreed on, real issues (like age, which is true for almost all US politicians) and fringe disagreements. Each fringe entry in the list would link to the page synced between instances that subscribe to those beliefs, but that page would not be a part of the larger synced Biden pages' contents. That keeps the lizard lovers' content off the larger, community-focused instances.
I guess I'm worried about conspiracy theories pulling users of the 'realistic' path, while increasing load on dissenting instances. I don't think Biden's a lizardman, so I shouldn't have to host the 12 hour long documentary on it. (We all know he's a reincarnated demon-angel hybrid. Oh, so now you don't agree? Fine, I'll host my 36 part finger puppet reenactment of the situation myself!)
Anyhow, I'm kinda babbling. These are just some general ideas off the cuff I wanted to get out there. I'm not a mod or an admin, so I'm hoping to get the conversation restarted among those with the ability to enact some of these changes. Reddit is still a knowledgebase of useful past discussions, and while new content is great, the more we can pull into the fediverse, the better.
I think you're right: a wiki is probably the best place/format for this type of information. I think this post is more interested in the preservation of information than it's formating. In that regard I think the most simple way to get the most copies produced is probably the best.
I will add that many of us who work remotely using publicly accessible wifi also use VPNs, and Imgur actively blocks IPs from multiple commercial VPN providers. If you want those users to see the image you're sharing, Imgur is not the way to go.
Pixelfed works well with other Fediverse services like Kbin and Lemmy. Try hosting there!
The first one that comes to mind is that defederation DOES stop your posts from going to Meta's platform when combined with the AUTHORIZED_FETCH server setting, while a simple user-level block may not. Depending on your server's settings, your posts may or may not be available on the open web where Meta could scrape the data - but this is still very different from them appearing in the feed or search results of, say, the transphobic, racist, or antisemitic groups that call Meta home.
This has serious implications for user safety and should not be overlooked. In fact, user safety is one of the biggest issues I have seen people mention when advocating for defederation.
Second: it's not yet clear if threads will allow their users to follow people on Lemmy or Kbin servers. But if they do, their users - including, for instance, the millions of followers of some big celebrity or politician - would be able to uprank posts and influence what you end up seeing. You might have LibsOfTikTok tell their users to brigade any posts critical of them, who knows. Meta's own algorithms could end up surfacing certain posts to their users, making the post rankings here largely a reflection of what Meta wants their users to see.
In other words, there's a lot more to the story than just 'blocking their content' when it comes to why you would want full defederation.
Here are a couple of blog posts that go into more detail around some of the data & privacy issues with federation:
The whole line of thinking where we don't need to bother with defederating because your data can still end up over on Threads is not entirely correct. Yes, you can still grab data via RSS, yes you can still scrape data, but from an AP standpoint Threads users will not see or be able to interact with your content if you are on server that does not federate with Meta, and that is key. If the threads app can't see your data, and users there cannot follow or interact with your posts, then Meta cannot gather intelligence on you in relation to their users, which is completely different than scraping your data and viewing it in a vacuum. Your content is more valuable to Meta in relation to the content of their users and how they interact with you.
Yes, you can learn a bit about someone by observing them from a distance, but you learn so much more if you are interacting with them directly.
Finally someone who has a clue. That was well written and easy to understand. Thank you for all the work you put into that post!
Defederation is about what an instance allows in, not what an instance allows out. Defederation stops you seeing the defederated instance's content, but it does not stop them seeing your instance's content.
As a final, tiny little point of interest - there is a setting called AUTHORIZED_FETCH (Secure mode) which will force the requesting instance to authenticate. This can be used to stop the data from flowing out.
Of course enabling this is somewhat problematic as it tends to break other things. But it's there.
Thank you for the clarification. I was also confused by that quote (ie: if you can control who’s data your reading… you should be able to control who has access to your data. Of course, this doesn’t include mirroring content and other shady practices, but I don’t think Meta would go down that path to avoid being defederated)
On Mastodon at least, neither authorized fetch, nor "disallow unauthenticated API requests" really stops the outflow. it does in an ActivityPub sense, however, I have both flags activated on my instance, but Mastodon has an RSS feed for every account, by just adding .rss to the profile URL, and anyone can pull that without authentication.
The option to turn off .rss feeds for accounts doesn't exist in a standard mastodon install. the Hometown fork of Mastodon has the option to disable it.
So while the flags above will help prevent random discovery/propagation by others on the Fediverse, there are still open doors for accessing the data, at least on Mastodon. I can't really speak for the other projects.
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