Self defense. But also like someone else said proportionate response is key. If someone gets mad at you in a bar and throws a punch, pushing him away is fine. Hitting him to subdue him is probably okay. Shooting him dead is not.
I’m also not really okay with people using murder to defend their stuff. Like if someone sneaks into my house and I catch them going out the window with my tv, shooting them is not to me justified. There are more TV’s. That guy gets one life. Remember what Gandalf said.
I think a lot of people have like tough guy fantasies about shooting a burglar and it always makes me uncomfortable.
On the other hand, if someone was on trial for shooting a Nazi dead I would find them not guilty. Shame that Nazi spontaneously bled out. But at least he’s gone before he killed my entire family and friends.
For anyone who sincerely didn’t get the reference:
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
I’m good with you shooting someone entering your house, but not when they’re leaving. I don’t expect people, especially vulnerable ones, to bet their life that the guy breaking in is a thief and not a rapist or murderer.
It might be availability bias or similar, but there are a lot of stories about people shooting people entering their house or property that should not have been shot.
There was a story about delivery drivers who got shot at recently. npr.org/…/south-florida-shot-at-instacart-deliver…. That’s actually a good example of the shooter unnecessarily escalating. He could’ve just… Not shot at them. They were trying to leave.
It’s possible there’s a bunch of unreported instances of people successfully defending themselves with guns. Scenarios like that where the person on the property really was there with deadly intentions. But I kind of feel like no. I’m pretty sure the scenario of “someone breaks into your house to murder you!” is actually extremely rare. (or if it does happen, it’s the police)
We should also take a moment to think on the chilling effect accepting this level of violence has. I don’t want this to be a world where I have to worry about being shot because some idiot feared for his life or property.
I was visiting a friend in upstate New York and I was legit worried walking from the train to their place. I wasn’t sure which house was my friend’s. I called them and had them come out and greet me because I didn’t want to risk going to a neighbor’s house by accident, and have that neighbor shoot me because they thought I was a burglar. And I’m a white guy.
I would agree those are unreasonable uses of force. And bad raids don’t end with LEO getting shot nearly enough.
The comment I was replying to mentioned someone stealing a TV through a window if I’m not mistaken, and that’s what I’m referring to. But if you decide to force your way into someone’s house, it’s not on them to interrogate you to determine your intent. I have respect for people that would risk themselves in a situation they didn’t create, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to force everyone to behave as tho the guy that just broke your window or forced his way into your house is just there for a cup of tea.
When someone who I was supposed to be able to trust kept repeatedly trying to record me naked in the shower, I retaliated once by kicking him hard in the face. I was told that what I did was wrong and violence was never the answer. I disagree.
Whenever my father’s family wanted to convey what an injury felt like or needed a theoretical weapon the humble 2x4 was always used. Thanks for bringing back memories of the old folks telling stories around a fire or in a crowded, smoky kitchen. :)
As a kid another kid regularly bullied me. Nothing extremely serious… pushing me, grabbing me, putting me in a headlock, stuff like that whenever he felt like it and/or wanted something. Parents and teachers were not able to stop it and I basically just got retaliation. One day when he came at me I simply kicked and managed to hit right in his balls. He ran away crying. Never bothered me again afterwards. Still feels good.
When responding to aggression, the response should not significantly escalate the risk. So lethal force should only be applied in scenarios where there is a lethal threat, etc.
I’ve been caught in a bomb scare, guns would have done fuck all when there was a massive police presence that the trains were stopped and the shut down a whole part of a city. In fact a gun would have made me more likely to be killed than going the fuck home.
You’re not required to risk your life for someone that’s victimizing you. You didn’t create the situation and your responsibility is to defend yourself and your loved ones.
Surely protecting is by definition preemptive since it means you are not allowing the violence against yourself or someone else to occur? Not saying your first point is wrong just doesn’t seem consistent to me.
Only revenge/retribution would not be preemptive which imo is not better.
Personally, I’d prefer non-violent over violent means for myself. If other people are involved it would depend - I won’t risk someone else’s life if I can avoid it. I tell my niece that she’s allowed to stab dudes that don’t respond to “no”.
Preemptive is a different word from defending because they mean different things. Preemptive violence is violence that happens before a threat exists because of the possibility of a threat.
So shooting your neighbor on Tuesday because think he might be violent on Wednesday. If on Wednesday he shows up and makes verbal threats of imminent violence, responding to the threat of violence by being violent first would be self defense and not preemptive because the threat actually exists at the time. Timing and context matter, not who literally who gets off the first shot/punch/violent act.
I would argue to stop other violence, not necessarily bigger, is also justified. It’s never allowed unrestricted, especially as the bigger entity, but a tactical or measured response to prevent further violence can make sense.
I don’t believe that is what you meant, but @dewritoninja has a point: on your definition, where is the acceptable limit for the violence-to-supress-violence?
PS: “An eye for an eye” (law of exact retaliation) was written to suppress escalation of violence. And usually people consider even that excessive.
Let’s talk real world, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you think a reasonable argument can be made that those bombings made sense? If not, what about in 1945?
I’m not asking you to agree, just to understand the argument. It’s a discussion worth having, even if you disagree with the answer.
I don’t think it made sense, even at that time. Those cities were mainly built with wood, and US used a lot of fire against Japan.
The use of nuclear power against Japan was more like a test and a message, it was not needed to win the war. (At least this is what I remember from this documentary )
Self défense, yep. On a battlefield ? Let these old fuck fight one vs one to resolve their conflict. A noble end is so fucking subjective that I think it would be a terrible idea.
Violence is justified when you have no other means left to defend yourself or someone else otherwise.
At which point I would like to add that people will sometimes not be able to see the means they have left because they are put in a stressful situation in a second. I feel like you can’t really blame them for that.
Violence as a response should always be in proportion. That should avoid escalation. In an ideal world.
Unfortunately some people won’t stop. Those people need to be put into prison where they cannot hurt anyone anymore.
So your comment made me find the origin of the quote. While it’s not verbatim, the quote comes from starship troopers apparently, definitely not Ayn Rand.
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