One of the most aggravating things to me in this world has to be the absolutely rampant anti-intellectualism that dominates so many conversations and debates, and its influence just seems to be expanding. Do you think there will ever actually be a time when this ends? I'd hope so once people become more educated and cultural changes eventually happen, but as of now it honestly infuriates me like few things ever have.
I don’t think this will go away completely, but there is a possibility to reduce it. By improving the education system, and also helping people communicate better, we can expect this problem’s severity to reduce.
As long as there are financial incentives to keep people being anti-intellectual, we will never see a world where the average person acts in good faith and with good knowledge of the subjects they’re talking/debating about.
It’s an unfortunate side effect of an unequal society where people feel left behind and then see a lot of people who had the advantage and privilege to go though years of education lecturing them on how to live. This breeds resentment and makes them targets for movements and groups that oppose these ideas.
You writing that this is mostly a US phenomenon (which is not true) is weirdly appropriate, since it shows the main issue (not being informed enough about what happens around the world).
Can we start with anti-I-Need-My-Dopamine-Hit-Every-10-Minutes?
Between people’s ever depleting attention span and our desire for acceptance on social media, I just don’t see how you can even begin to tackle “anti-intellectualism”.
Most people use these platforms to comment on a headline and never read the article. Perhaps we could all decide to use these platforms properly and use the downvote button to bury comments that, while funny or otherwise emotionally engaging, are clearly not accurate or providing value to the topic of discussion.
By upvoting funny comments and rewarding hive-mind mentality, we’re partly to blame for the lack of intellectualism.
Lemmy is far better than Reddit regarding the use of downvotes, but many people still use it as an emotional disagreement button rather than something used to hide useless/irrelevant content. I only downvote when somebody says something completely fucked or starts trolling.
I don't think upvoting funny comments is necessarily wrong, but there is a lack of meaningful engagement a lot of the time.
Lemmy is far better than Reddit regarding the use of downvotes, but many people still use it as an emotional disagreement button rather than something used to hide useless/irrelevant content
I don’t know if I’d agree at all with the idea that Lemmy is any better, in my experience, people still use the downvote button as an “I Disagree” button 99% of the time. There’s less people here, so it’s less pronounced (you’ll get -9 instead of -300 for expressing an against-the-grain opinion), but the pattern is still just as present
I've only found people who say really stupid shit get completely downvoted to the floor on Lemmy and there are almost always extensive responses. Anecdotes aren't the best evidence, I guess my experience was very different.
However, at least you can actually see if people upvoted or downvoted and not just the total, so people are less inclined to just hop the train straight away. Depends largely on the instance though. I'm pretty sure Hexbears can't even downvote.
Reading the comments, it seems that the take on this in a lot of highly voted comments is the highly simplistic “some people are stupid, others are not”.
Let me make one thing clear: Intelligence is NOT Wisdom, and whilst the former might make it easier the get the latter, to begin down the path of growing the latter requires an ability to recognize one’s lack of it and such ability is dependent on things like self-confidence, self-criticism, ability to practice introspection and possibly a reasonably varied life-experience, most of which barelly correlate with intelligence (and in some cases the correlation is actually negative).
Yes, it’s emotionally satisfying for people who see themselves as intelligent (yet can’t even recognize the limits of intelligence) to think their greatest quality (worse, one they’re born with rather than acquired) makes them immune to that problem, which they thing is because “most people are stupid”.
(Funnily enough, more intelligent people are apparently more likely to fall for scams, which would make sense if one they tended to overestimates the power of mere intelligence)
However emotionally satisfying doesn’t mean right and a wise person would suspect such self-serving “I’m great because I have this characteristic and it’s those who don’t have it who are the problem” ‘conclusions’.
Personally I think a lot of the manipulation going on nowadays is at an emotional level (just go learn about modern marketing and start playing attention at how branding in TV is mostly creating associations between the brand and certain emotional urges and impulses, for example perfumes with sex and cars with freedom) and an “indoctrinated” subconscious definitelly bypasses intelligence no mater how extraordinary (Hollywood’s typical portrayal of exceptional genious is an almst superhumanly wise person - or alternativelly, nutty professor - all very unrealistic).
Also I’ve known some highly intelligent people who were so unable to accept that even they were non-omiscient humans who made mistakes, that they migt as well be morons (these people are rare though).
Anybody who thinks themselves above making mistakes is delusional. It's really concerning how people will live such self-centred lives without greater consideration or introspection. So many people lack self-awareness and the ability to properly process emotions without just giving in to them. Cultural conditioning and manipulation definitely plays a part in this. It took me so long to realise how wrong the consumption of animal products was because until I got around the age of 12 I thought much more highly of people and didn't believe so many people would partake, willing or ignorantly, in the abuse of animals so carelessly. Realising how selfish and narrow-minded many people are is really saddening. It's very rare for someone to break free from social conditioning, even more so by their own decisions alone.
I also have to agree the comments saying shit like 'some people are stupid, others are not' are just redundant. Similarly, the people who say 'not everyone is an idiot, you have to see it from their perspective' are also incredibly annoying. Even if people have reasons, they don't provide adequate justifications. I can understand why they may have an idea or perspective, but it doesn't make it valid. I have gone through understanding people more than most people to ever have existed will have tried, but I can't fight every single case. Too many people think their opinion matters equally to another's who has invested magnitudes more time into formulating it. I think people really need a humbling to be able to appreciate things and learn more.
I’d like to preface this by saying I have all the vaccines, including four covid vaccines.
Until just a few years ago, I was all-in on the institutions. You see, institutions have been synonymised with science and intellectualism. Fast forward to covid and we had our healthcare professionals lying to us. “Masks are ineffective.” “Sorry I lied. You’ll die if you don’t wear masks in public.” “Except if you’re a BLM looter, then racism is a public health emergency.” Our leaders were locking us in our homes, closing our bank accounts, banning us from social media, shutting down free speech, and effectively forcing us to take very minimally tested vaccines, repeatedly. They gaslit us about the origin of the virus. We learned that the people who were likely responsible for the lab leak were working in collusion with the Chief Medical Adviser/Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases/Chief of the NIAID Laboratory of Immunoregulation.
Kind of alarming, right? Data suggests trust in institutions took a huge hit under covid. Not because of “misinformation,” but because of dishonest and authoritarian actions by leaders.
Then we have science. Data shows that political partisanship is at an all time high in universities. Up to 20% of lecturers identify as communists. There is no equivalent on the right. In fact, the mix of liberal and conservative faculty members in universities in America is so lopsided now, it’s as much as 10:1. We can all pretend like this hyper-partisanship doesn’t lead to research and educational biases, but we can see that it does, in real time. For example, trans research. It would be hard to name a field receiving more funding today, nor a field less impartial. Many advocates and researchers argue vehemently that transitioning is necessary to save the lives of those with gender dysphoria. Yet there is not a single study, anywhere, which shows this. The closest researchers have come is arguing that “suicidal ideation” is a synonym for “suicide,” and because self-reported ideation decreases in some studies, this means transition saves lives. Clearly this is incorrect, but such research is so widely used and misused that the President of the U.S. has endorsed it. Conversely, there are numerous reports of researchers being barred from testing hypotheses which question this premise, or outright removed from universities. [1][2][3][4][5] When researchers are prevented from studying all sides of an issue, all that’s left is the narrative of those in power.
For me, the question isn’t “will the world ever stop being anti-intellectual?” Instead, it really should be, “what are institutions doing to mend the immense harm they have caused to trust?” I am amazed it hasn’t happened sooner, and that the backlash isn’t even larger.
Wow there is so much misinformation here and fear mongering and anti trans bigotry right under the surface.
If you thought this would come off as looking like a centrist take and not that you were a right wing nut bag trying to frame your misinformed biases as centrism, you utterly failed.
You need to take a long hard look at yourself before you start criticizing “institutions”, there, guy.
Add in surface level observations of 'if you are so smart you would realise not everyone is an idiot' or 'you have to understand their perspective better' and maybe 1/2 comments you are slamming a shot. I guess people don't read comments anymore. (Probably never did.)
No, because there are a lot of people who don’t care to learn more than they need to and aren’t curious to learn more, or they do not want to change their mind and are set in their beliefs.
I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed literal “anti-intellectualism”, perhaps that’s a thing around you ? People not caring/understanding the value of knowledge, sure, but deliberately opposing it… that sounds terribly dumb. Not sure what anybody would get out of it
Have you seen people overrate “common sense”? That’s it.
Don’t think deeply, go for common sense, disregard the specialists, we can’t understand their areas of study, therefore they are lying.
Also, avoid studying humanities: history, philosophy, sociology, politics. That will make you poor! Stay technical and mathy, don’t worry about anything else other than making money! Have a life project! Get rich!
That’s the anti intellectual speech.
Who benefits from the smart peoples of the world not questioning the status quo, and the building blocks of capitalism?
Were you not around for the last 4 years when half the country decided all doctors were working together and lying?
There is absolutely some (growing?) distrust in institutional knowledge, pharmaceutical labs, etc. but it’s far from being as strong as in the US (which is the country I assume you’re referring to?)
may I introduce you to the very real concepts of anti-vaccine people and flat-earthers? or the people disregarding health advice during the pandemic because of some global conspiracy to kill people with masks
It ebbs and flows. My personal conspiracy is that it’s a built-in self-destruct switch in case a species overpowers all predators, diseases, and lack of resources. Some code auto-nerfs the species so they aren’t OP forever.
When resources are plentiful, vaccines have stopped most major diseases, everyone is washing their hands and decently educated …that’s when the incels, the homeschooler mommy groups who distrust science, and the religious zealots sow discord and take civilization down, lol.
I’m sure the demographics throughout history change. But the base instincts of greed, fear, and hate blow apart cultures and empires throughout time.
Actually, it is not “the world”. Only certain parts and groups of it. The US is quite anti-intellectual, especially where the GOP is in power, as they draw their clientele from people who think less for themselves. So, naturally, they discourage intellectual advance wherever they can - Crippling public schools and libraries, making university unaffordable, etc.
I live in Asia, and overall I find people here give too much weight to fancy degrees and whatnot.
It feels a lot less bad than anti-intellectualism (especially for me, personally), but presents its own set of problems. Sometimes it feels people overestimate my knowledge of all subjects, just because I wrote a thesis on the behavior or one insect on a particular tree, in a tiny geographical region.
I wouldn’t say “the world” is anti-intellectual, some populists are. The US right is definitely anti-intellectual and they have better PR so you’re getting a lot of if in the media. It’s because Republican voters are mostly from small towns and not well educated so the party is trying to demonize education as something elitist. It’s the same in Poland where the ruling, far-right party’s electorate are mostly people from smaller towns and villages. But in Spain where the right wing voters are mostly upper class and well educated and left wing voters are working class you don’t see a lot of anti-intellectual rhetoric. For example the anti-vax movement during covid was mostly non-existent here. I think UK is the same: right wing party is the party of well educated voters so they don’t promote anti-intellectual ideas.
I think UK is the same: right wing party is the party of well educated voters so they don’t promote anti-intellectual ideas.
That maybe was the case at one time. Labor was certainly the party of the common man.
But Tories became more populist as xenophobia and racism became more valuable to them. Just look at all the Brexit nonsense and their embrace of UKIP. Michael Gove, a prominent member of the conservative party, during the lead-up to the Brexit referendum, said in favor of Brexit, “I think the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.”
Same, I’m not British so I’m basing this only on what I’ve see in the news but as I see it it’s more about nationalism and racism than anti-intellectualism. It’s more like “it’s time to stop listening to the economists and just kick all the foreigners out”. You know, as in experts might be right about the economy suffering but we don’t care, we just want “our country back”. I really don’t see a lot of “education is bad, universities are bad” propaganda from UK right. Boris was definitely pretending he didn’t got to the elite schools and clubs but the rest of recent PMs do not.
But it's not just some countries, it's our entire corner of the world - for my purposes the more or less "western aligned" one.
I'm Norwegian and we've just almost definitely flipped conservative again after a remarkably efficient belly flop by "Labour". They fucked up bad enough even local elections turned markedly conservative, in some cases ending basically 100 years of Labour tradition. Sweden is seeing a marked rise in the "immigrant bad" Sverigedemokraterna, which were pretty fringe until recently. Germany has the whole AfD thing going on. You already mentioned Poland and the UK. There's also Hungary in the same vein. Slovakia just turned pro-Russia which is inherently hard to couple with intellect. All of this has been fairly noticeable over the past decade, and that's just the Euro view. In the US they went from "your suit sucks" to "you weren't born here" and then really jumped the shark.
You’re confused. We’re not talking about countries turning right, we’re talking about countries being anti-intellectual. It’s not the same. Far-right Spanish parties are not anti-intellectual, far-right UK parties are not (IMHO) anti-intellectual. Also, is the other way around: people are not voting for far-right parties because they are anti-intellectual. Attacking education is just a tool used by right with parties to create division between “us” (the God fearing, traditional values loving conservatives) and “them” (the educated elites that want to destroy the traditional way of living). The growing anti-intellectual sentiments is just a result of right wing parties gaining power, not the other way around.
What does being “quirky” have to do with being stupid? Is there some published conformist standard of normal that makes people smart for adhering to it? grillman
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I think they mean "quirky" in the sense of standing out. Some people will walk over corpses if it makes them stand out.
Being overtly stupid is apparently a great way of standing out very quickly, if you're not picky about the kind of attention you get.
I believe there is an evolutionary purpose to human stupidity though, and it’s the reason we’ve come so far as a species. Without writing a novel here, look up the concept of simulated annealing, which is conceptually related to natural selection. The short version is, when searching for a better solution to problem in a sea of functionally infinite possible solutions, if you only ever try solutions you can see that are categorically better than the solution you currently have, you will (with statistical certainty) end up in a local maxima. That is to say, without stupid people, no one would have ever looked at a cow udder and thought, “yeah, I wanna get in on that”, and as a result many humans throughout history would have gone without nutrients necessary for their survival.
I have no idea who first drank cow’s milk, that’s not the point, don’t @ me. The point is, stupid people try stupid stuff, many times it is just as stupid as it looked, but sometimes that stupid thing turns out to have previously undiscovered potential benefits which smart people notice, research, and help integrate into our society, resulting in others’ lives being better.
So to further simplify, stupid people are unwitting test subjects that the rest of humanity sometimes benefit from because they do dumb shit no one else would have thought to try.
I’m only using the word “stupid” here because the thread is about intelligence and anti-intelligence. But more generally, I think there is a reason that it’s easy to plot political ideologies (even outside the two-party system of the US) somewhere on a progressive/conservative spectrum. I believe Progressiveism and Conservativism form the same dichotomy as Mutation and Rote Replication in the context of DNA. In the stock market and economy it’s referred to as Greed and Fear. In philosophy and game theory it’s called Exploration and Exploitation. These are all the same phenomenon to me, one takes a step forward the other takes a step back, sometimes you need a bit more of one to survive, other times you need a bit more of the other.
I’m reminded of an episode from Stargate when one of the Asgardians, Thor I believe, was able to stop replicators from attacking his home world with the help of one of the main Earth characters, Sam. Thor needed someone of a less evolved/“stupider” species to help with the problem after none of the Asgard scientists could find a way. He said with compliment, “It was your stupid idea,” and Sam smiled back.
Oh my god. Stupidity is what people pushes us out of steady, slow, incremental progress towards a local maxima. I’m stunned. You might have something there.
You know, the only thing that keeps smart people from trying stuff is cultural boundaries and social fitness, which in itself is something evolutionary grown and includes small progress to a local maxima? You know, that the only thing that keeps us from trying unconventional stuff is often the lack of money, which inherently comes from the state. The politics decide about money and they also cater to stupid voters or to business interests. This in itself is stupidity. The answer of stupid is evolutionary benefitting is just fine on the surface, but if you look at the complexity of issues, it is not as clear. And then there is my opinion that i would rather accept some local maxima while some scientists try unconventional stuff than have stupid people always thinking theyre right DKing all the time, because it is exhausting! I know it is not a choice, but if one thinks being and staying stupid is fine, which might be the consequence of “stupidity is evolutionary advantageous”, then I would rather fight the premise, because that would not be acceptable to me.
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