So, on pronouns.

BuddyTheBeefalo, 9 months ago

I find the use of the term guys exclusive.

shapis, 9 months ago

What do you mean

BuddyTheBeefalo, 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

u/t3hgrl on reddit:

I have some strong opinions on this topic. It really is the default to talk about a group of people and most people out there won’t be bothered by it. Does that mean it is no longer a gendered term? Absolutely not. We’ve defaulted to male pronouns to refer to all humans for a really really long time, and it has never gone the other way. Using female pronouns to talk about a group has always been belittling, and there’s no female equivalent of “guys.” One of my favourite lines for when a man tries to tell me it’s okay to use guys because it’s completely gender-neutral is to ask “oh okay, so do you f*ck guys?” (Works for “dude” as well by the way!)

Personally I’ve been trying to remove it from my lexicon and have been having luck with saying y’all, everyone, friends, you two (or three, or four, etc.), and fam. “Y’all” is also not at all local to me either but I’ve found a lot of people have been using it as somewhat of a silly alternative and it’s become more accepted (in Canada. Might be a bigger stretch in Ireland.) I appreciate hearing people work on removing “guys” from their use and it does actually stick out to me when someone refers to me as a “guy,” but I have never corrected anyone. I see this as a change I’m working on for my own language and am not shy about sharing why, and I see a lot of people working on that same change (especially in LGBTQ2+ communities) so I foresee “guys” becoming much less common in the future.

TankieCatgirl, 9 months ago

The female equivalent to “guys” would be “gals” imo.

ratboy, 9 months ago

They may be acting facetious, but “guys” is a gendered term and some folks don’t appreciate being referred to as a guy. Just like some people don’t like being called “dude”. But that’s person to person, anyway. To answer your questions from my perspective (I’m a nonbinary millenial fyi)

Your pronouns are whatever feel reflective of your gender. If you feel that you’re a cisgendered man (someone who aligns with their gender assigned at birth), then yeah he/him is probably accurate. It’s whatever feels most authentic to you.

As for telling people your pronouns, I think it honestly would be really nice for more cisgender dudes to normalize that. It’s pretty uncommon for men to do in my experience, and I think it would show that you want to be respectful of gender nonconforming folks. Also if you share first, it may actually help people to feel more comfortable around you, and then they’ll likely share theirs so you won’t have to ask.

As for pronouns irl I’ve only really met folks who go by he/him, they/them, or she/her. I am not really deep in the queer community, though, and I think it’s more common to find folks who have other different pronouns in those spaces because they feel comfortable using them. It probably also depends on where you live. I live in a pretty queer-friendly town and so trans and other gender nonconforming folks make up a decent chunk of the population.

In conclusion though, I think doing all of the things you just asked about is really great and more men should do. Be a model for other dudes; get people comfy with it because if anyone else gets weird/hostile about it you are in a place of privilege to push back on that, and more of that is needed, especially in the political climate we are living in rn

Thisfox, 9 months ago

I don’t. Plenty of times said “what are you guys doing?” to a group of people which did not include men. I have been addressed the same way plenty, despite being cis female. Possibly it’s different in other countries, but on the east coast of nsw “guys” is gender neutral.

07Chess, 9 months ago

Most people aren’t going to ask about your pronouns if you present in a traditionally gendered way. If someone tells you their pronouns I think it’s polite to tell them yours too even if you think it’s obvious. It sounds like the way you’ve described yourself that your pronouns are he/him. If you find yourself around a group of queer/trans folks it would probably be contextually appropriate for you to introduce yourself as “My name is and I use he/him.” If you want to go above and beyond and do that all the time nobody will fault you that would benefit or appreciate that information. Some people may be confused or make an assumption but if you want to be an ally that can include taking the brunt of some of those conversations and teaching people why you’re doing it. Makes it more normalized.

You are pretty much always welcome to ask someone’s pronouns if you are unsure. Most trans/non binary folks will appreciate you asking because unfortunately there are a lot of cis hetero men that wouldn’t extend that courtesy or demonstrate that they’re accepting and open like that. As long as you’re respectful just ask “Hey, name, what are your pronouns? Mine are he/him.” and that will be more than sufficient. If you mess up after that do not apologize. Instead, thank them, restate your sentence using the correct pronouns, and move on. Don’t make it a huge ordeal and fall over yourself apologizing. Saying you’re sorry in that situation puts the misgendered person in the position of having to say “it’s okay” when it’s not. Thanking them demonstrates you’re aware that you made a mistake and shows that you are appreciative and trying to learn and do better.

For example: You: “He loves to skateboard.” Other person “they” You: “Right! Thank you. They love to skateboard.” then continue the rest of what you were saying.

Online can be tricky. You only really need to gender someone if they gender themselves. Everyone to me online is they until I see evidence otherwise. It makes your life easier to just be as neutral as possible.

There are definitely people out there that use unconventional pronouns. I’ve only met a few that use something other than they/them but they’re out there. It’s not just a fad or for inclusivity for the sake of it, it’s just rare. In fact there are probably people you’ve met that use they/them but they may not have been comfortable telling you that. It’s understandable, but I think it says a lot about your character that you’re curious and want to do the right thing. Thanks for asking!

theshatterstone54, 9 months ago

Personally, I use they/them until told otherwise. It makes sure I don’t offend anyone that way.

eestileib, 9 months ago

Putting them in your profile as a cis person really helps normalize it. So if you want to take another step into ally-dom add em in places like zoom meetings etc.

barry_budapest, 9 months ago

You can normalize preferred pronouns by declaring them when you introduce yourself. Eg. I’m Barry and my pronouns are he/him. That’s being a good ally.

If you get someone’s pronoun wrong, it’s no big deal as long as you don’t keep pushing it. They can correct you and you should just use their pronoun after. The most important thing is to use the correct pronoun once told.

You can also ask if a person you have just met has preferred pronouns.

Ocelot, 9 months ago

I think at some point language as a whole will shift. Most languages have had a concept of masculine/feminine and differentiating between genders for most if not all of their history. This seems pretty weird as a concept in modern times since it serves no real benefit. If we were to develop a language from scratch today I don’t think it would have such features.

Its going to take a pretty long time (hundreds of years) but language is constantly evolving. I think it will get there. In the meantime things are going to remain at least a little confusing.

I have a few transgender friends and its still a bit if a mental hurdle to see them as who they want to be identified as sometimes. I sometimes slip up and will call them by their old name or use the wrong pronoun. It’s never intentional of course, but sometimes my mental auto-correct isn’t working at full capacity. If I meet the person post-transition then its never really a problem as I always see them as that gender.

Jumi, 9 months ago

From what I’ve seen so far pronouns are never in question irl although the circles I’m in there are not into that topic and online everyone who sees it as important has their own somewhere in their status or bio or whatever.

bogdugg, 9 months ago

Personally, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Use what you think is appropriate. If you’re unsure, use they/them; if they correct you, adjust accordingly. If you want to be most accommodating, default to they/them for everyone you meet unless they correct you or you learn otherwise. If you’d like others to feel more comfortable providing pronouns, providing your own - even if you believe it is obvious - can be a way to help normalize it for others.

ada, 9 months ago

Honestly, just try and avoid aggressively using gendered pronouns as the default. It’s not the end of the world if you do, but if you just stick with using they/them and names until you’ve had a chance to pick up on the social cues, you’ll be fine. And if it’s in a situation where no one knows anyone else, and where the social cues aren’t giving you the answer, then yeah, that’s the time to lead with your name and pronouns.

But none of it’s a big issue. Trans folk feel it when you get it wrong. We notice, but we also understand that sometimes mistakes happen, especially in a society that has taught everyone to associate pronouns and assumed gender. What’s important isn’t that you get it right every time, what’s important is that you pay attention when you get it wrong, and do your best to get it right from then on.

shapis, 9 months ago

I’ll keep that in mind. Thank you.

Ilflish, 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

Pronouns are just your preference for what you should be referred to. If you don’t provide them people will assume. The logic is that if only people who want to use specific pronouns suggest them, you are essentially outing yourself so even if you associate with your birth pronouns, it’s polite to present them so it’s less awkward for others.

The actual use is more awkward. The expected use is that you use it when the person in question is discussed but a pronoun isn’t really used unless that person is not around so again it seems to just be a polite way to present yourself.

For added context a good use case of announcing pronouns would be a research paper where someone would be described to another person Edit: Ive been made aware about another obvious use case. Talking to people online where you might not have a way to identify any other way

systemglitch, 9 months ago

It’s insane, literally, to care about this. Making language more complex than its simplicity of expression needs to be is insane.

Stop buying into this you loons.

520, 9 months ago

I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him?

If you want them to be.

Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?

A decent social cue to use would be if someone has mistakenly used one of the 'default' pronouns (he/him or she/her). Just be polite and understanding about it.

And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

You don't know what you don't know. The only people who would give you shit before you could have reasonably known would be, frankly, someone looking for drama/a fight. Treat those people accordingly.

I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

It is worth keeping in mind that we are talking about a relatively small crowd of people that identify as non-binary or use non-standard pronouns. It is pushed mainly because it prevents exclusion for these people and honestly it costs nothing anyway.

It's also handy for the trans crowd, as although they may use standard pronouns, they might not be the ones they currently appear as.

Tomboys_are_Cute, 9 months ago

I am a straight male

Being straight doesn’t impact what your pronouns are! Your gender, whether you are cis, non-binary, trans, or any other gender identity is what determines these pronouns.

are my pronouns he/him?

Probably but thats up to you. Usually pronouns are given in that order as a matter of standardisation for understanding where they go in a sentence. Ie “He is going to the store” or “it all comes down his choice.” Obviously this leaves out some other gendered standard pronouns like formal Sirs and Ma’ams but for most conversation knowing she/her or they/them gets you most of the way there. For standard ones it might be intuitive but for people with neo-pronouns it helps a lot.

do you tell people when you meet them?

Sometimes. I try to do it more these days as a matter of course but usually I will give them when I’m in an environment where some people do and don’t where no one does. They are in my email signatures and real social media bios though.

Online rules

At least on your profile somewhere. I like Hexbear’s “no exceptions they will be in your name” policy, its better for uptake and helps people feel included.

figuring out others

If it isn’t clear you could always ask. If you aren’t a dick about it then it’s usually fine. If you get corrected though the most respectful thing you could do is just say sorry and use the right ones from that point on.

non conventional pronouns

Yes people do use them, if you are in places that queer people go to or feel comfortable you are more likely to meet someone with them. I would argue its more polite to refer to them as neo pronouns but I also have boring ones so its not really my place to say. If you look around hexbear there are a couple of frequent posters with neo pronouns and I’ve known a few people irl to use neo pronouns as well.

salarua, 9 months ago

answering your questions as best I can (I’m a straight male too) in order:

1. if he/him seems right to you, then your pronouns are he/him. if other pronouns seem right to you, then your pronouns are those pronouns. pronouns don’t have to match up with your gender or presentation, go with whatever you vibe with
2. when meeting new people, I give my name and pronouns. “hi, my name is salarua and my pronouns are he/him.” of course, it’s nice to give your pronouns when asked, but other than that it’s up to you
3. just including your pronouns in your profile is good. some people put them in their nicks, some in their bio or about me. if you have a Mastodon, Akkoma, Misskey, or Firefish account you can put your pronouns in your custom fields
4. you can try and figure out other people’s pronouns from how other people refer to them. many people will also give their pronouns if you introduce yourself with your pronouns. it’s not a faux pas to not know someone’s pronouns beforehand, although I admit I don’t know a non-awkward way to ask someone their pronouns
5. a good bet is to refer to people whose pronouns you don’t know as they/them. if you mispronoun someone by mistake, quietly correct yourself and continue with whatever you’re saying. “so after arriving at the office, he- sorry, they went to go see their supervisor about the presentation…” as long as it’s not done out of malice, people don’t mind being mispronouned if you acknowledge the slip-up and move on
6. I haven’t met anyone irl with neopronouns either. presumably people with neopronouns would go by them if they were among people they felt safe with. unfortunately most of the world isn’t safe :(

planish, 9 months ago

People will sometimes introduce themselves with pronouns, or sometimes wear little badges with them.

There are definitely people IRL who don’t use the pronouns one might guess by looking at them. I haven’t met many (any?) people who go by neopronouns, but they are around the Internet.

You can often just guess pronouns for people, but if you can’t read the gender someone is presenting (is your new friend rocking a kilt, sports bra, and enormous beard?) it might be polite to ask, and/or to use “they” until you get the right one.

You don’t have to want people to call you he/him just because you are a man. But he/him is overwhelmingly popular with men, so it’s a fine choice.

If there is a field for pronouns, and you want people to know yours instead of them having to guess, you should put yours in there. The other reason to put pronouns in, even if people are likely to guess right, is to exercise the field for the people who often get guessed wrong.