So, on pronouns.

theshatterstone54, 9 months ago

Personally, I use they/them until told otherwise. It makes sure I don’t offend anyone that way.

stealth_cookies, 9 months ago

Your pronouns are whatever you would like to be referred to. Generally someone would either correct you or you would hear the right ones during conversation to learn someone else’s. If they outwardly present as a specific gender then I would normally assume (or default to they/them) and just apologize and correct if someone corrects me. Most normal people will take such an interaction in stride without further thought.

In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.

blindsight, 9 months ago

In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.

This is the only reason I show my pronouns in my email signature and in virtual meetings. I think it’s important to normalize that people have and use different pronouns and, as an educator, it’s my responsibility to infuse SOGI (sexual orientation and gender identity) into my practices. Every action, however small, moves the needle.

Come to think of it, I should probably figure out how to do that on Lemmy, since I think there’s display name settings?

nyakojiru, 9 months ago

I hate you

bluebadoo, 9 months ago

Pro tip: everyone is they/them until otherwise stated. It sounds counterintuitive until you look at the example of the unknown stranger. You see a jacket left on the back of the a chair, and wonder if the stranger will return. You ask a person nearby, “Do you know who this belongs to? When are they coming back?”

English has always used neutral pronouns for someone unknown to you. We constantly make assumptions about gender based on appearance, and cis people take for granted that our outward appearance matches their gender. My best take on being an ally and inclusive is to default to gender neutral pronouns until someone states it or corrects you.

luthis, 9 months ago

Yep, they/them is the most simple and efficient solution.

Maoo, 9 months ago

Many other answers emphasizing to be on the considerate side are good. I just want to add two things.

Some folks have said that when the way you present matches your pronouns, you have less need to offer them. Personally, I think it is good to offer them anyways when meeting new people. People don’t always present exactly in a way that you might expect their pronouns to indicate. As one example among many, someone may present very femme but prefer they/them pronouns.

This also helps us (you and me both!) unlearn some of our learned gender associations and habits of inferring gender based on appearances. It can sometimes be unpleasant to deal with someone that’s clearly trying to figure out their gender identity visually or by voice, etc - trans or not. For an extreme example, there are even cis people getting harassed about which bathroom they’re using (the one aligning with their gender) based on reactionary assumptions.

Finishing up that topic, offering your own pronouns is also a way of letting others know it’s okay to be more open around you, that you are a bit safer than the average person. This can be most impactful, imo, for people who are trans or questioning but who aren’t out yet. A lot of folks are struggling at that point in their lives and it can really help to know who is safer.

My final thought is that when you don’t know someone’s identity, it’s good to get in the habit of using their name or they/them. If it’s a real person irl, then you’d still want to ask for pronouns soon-ish. Occasionally, they/them-ing someone can also become unpleasant, though usually it’ll be obvious from context (e.g. someone who is trans and strongly prefers he/him might perceive continued they/them to be a form of harassing them). Grabbing pronouns soon-ish avoids any awkwardness.

captainlezbian, 9 months ago

Trans woman here. Your pronouns are he/him unless you’d rather be addressed with other ones. There’s multiple ways to handle exchanging them but one of the popular strategies is look at how a person is presenting, how gendered their name is, etc and if it seems pretty strongly leaning one way you can guess otherwise give your pronouns and they give theirs in return. At least that’s what I do.

shapis, 9 months ago

Thank u that makes sense.

Narrrz, 9 months ago

I'm not the op, but like them im a cishet male. is it useful (to the movement, to non cishet, to LGBTQ+ people in general) to adopt pronouns other than what would be expected, perhaps to normalise them in much the same way that "partner" has been?

or would that generally be regarded as, well, something akin to cultural appropriation? or as malicious adoption, like "i identify as an attack helicopter"?

fubo, 9 months ago

It’s not appropriation, but if you don’t want to be called “xe/xem” then for crap’s sake don’t ask people to!

Narrrz, 9 months ago

well, I mean, it's no skin off my neck either way. I have no problem with being he/him, but I certainly wouldn't be offended be xe/xem (or for that matter she/her 😅 which was a mistake at least one person made during the mask mandate, when my beard wasn't so visible)

I'd just like to do what I can to make life easier for those who are faced with more everyday difficulties than I am, especially when it costs me so little.

ada, 9 months ago

or would that generally be regarded as, well, something akin to cultural appropriation? or as malicious adoption, like “i identify as an attack helicopter”?

It’s none of those things.

It’s more akin to pretending your name is Matt even though your name is Tom. You’re not going to offend anyone, and if it turns out that Matt feels right for you, then go for it, you’re Matt now. But if you’re not Matt, and don’t feel like Matt, then calling yourself Matt won’t achieve much for you or anyone else.

bogdugg, 9 months ago

Personally, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Use what you think is appropriate. If you’re unsure, use they/them; if they correct you, adjust accordingly. If you want to be most accommodating, default to they/them for everyone you meet unless they correct you or you learn otherwise. If you’d like others to feel more comfortable providing pronouns, providing your own - even if you believe it is obvious - can be a way to help normalize it for others.

doom_and_gloom, 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him?

There’s lots to sort through, humans are complex beings. But you can break it down into simple chunks. You’re straight - but this actually has no direct effect on your pronouns. You identify as ‘he,’ so your pronouns are he/him.

Is that how I should tell people?

If you want people to refer to you as a ‘he,’ then yes. He/him is correct.

Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?

It depends on the individual’s social expectations, like other conversation matter. Generally you will be fine not immediately offering your pronouns if you identify as a ‘he,’ you present as a ‘he,’ and others recognize you as a ‘he.’ However it is polite to offer your pronouns when others have offered theirs or asked someone else’s. Some situations may formally ask for pronouns and some circles may standardize it as a part of their conversations, and other times it comes up impromptu.

Being cool with and accepting of using pronouns simply prevents awkwardness/imbalances/double standards/a spotlight on anyone who ‘sticks out.’ This isn’t likely something you have to deal with, but that’s why it’s all the more meaningful when you can comfortably navigate these discussions for the sake of those have more complex identities - it helps them to feel their belonging. At the same time I’m not aware of any common expectation that you would initiate pronoun sharing unless your were an organizer of some sort. Of course it would be kind of you to initiate it if you’re in a situation where you think it might spare someone discomfort (e.g., to pre-empt ptoential misgendering of someone with pronoun sharing).

How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?

It is considerate and makes the space safer for others. On some platforms like hexbear it is expected. Of course, on many others it is not standard. No real right or wrong, as I see it. I’ve been meaning to change mine to username/username on lemmy because that’s how I would like to be seen and interacted with on this anonymous platform.

How do i figure them out ?

You can always offer yours. Maybe you missed the chance to do that with it being awkward. Most people I know consider it polite to ask something along the lines of “how do you like to be referred to?” Although this has largely been shortened to “what are your pronouns?” The issue in my experience here isn’t asking someone who is comfortable with these discussions (regardless of how they identify), the issue that really pops up is when you ask an innocent question to someone who gets upset by the concept of self-identity. Then they attack you and make you wish you had kept your mouth shut, even though the truth is you were being considerate. Some people also use they/them when in doubt as a relatively safe fallback.

Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ?

No, not unless it is someone who gets upset at the concept of self-identity. Otherwise - how could you?

Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

These are third-person pronouns, so in a brief interaction with a stranger you wouldn’t be using these pronouns to their face. You’d say ‘you/your.’ If you’re going to have a longer relationship with an individual, it’s good to find a way to clarify before using assumed pronouns too much. Again this is simple when people around you are comfortable with these discussions - “X identifies as ‘he,’ right? Okay, yeah, so yesterday he…” If you accidentally misgender someone and they point it out, they will generally be awkward in doing so. This doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve upset them, it’s just an awkward thing. If you’re humble about it and fix your gendering then, for most people in most cases, no foul has been committed.

Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

It’s not super common, especially outside of intimate social circles. However there are certainly a number of people who identify preferably as ‘they/them’ as opposed to either he or her. In my experience these people are thoroughly used to being referred to with different pronouns and feel appreciated in the rare event that someone takes the time and effort to use their preferred pronouns.

PrincessLeiasCat, 9 months ago

This is a wonderfully put together comprehensive and informative reply. Thank you :)

eestileib, 9 months ago

Putting them in your profile as a cis person really helps normalize it. So if you want to take another step into ally-dom add em in places like zoom meetings etc.

BuddyTheBeefalo, 9 months ago

I find the use of the term guys exclusive.

shapis, 9 months ago

What do you mean

BuddyTheBeefalo, 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

u/t3hgrl on reddit:

I have some strong opinions on this topic. It really is the default to talk about a group of people and most people out there won’t be bothered by it. Does that mean it is no longer a gendered term? Absolutely not. We’ve defaulted to male pronouns to refer to all humans for a really really long time, and it has never gone the other way. Using female pronouns to talk about a group has always been belittling, and there’s no female equivalent of “guys.” One of my favourite lines for when a man tries to tell me it’s okay to use guys because it’s completely gender-neutral is to ask “oh okay, so do you f*ck guys?” (Works for “dude” as well by the way!)

Personally I’ve been trying to remove it from my lexicon and have been having luck with saying y’all, everyone, friends, you two (or three, or four, etc.), and fam. “Y’all” is also not at all local to me either but I’ve found a lot of people have been using it as somewhat of a silly alternative and it’s become more accepted (in Canada. Might be a bigger stretch in Ireland.) I appreciate hearing people work on removing “guys” from their use and it does actually stick out to me when someone refers to me as a “guy,” but I have never corrected anyone. I see this as a change I’m working on for my own language and am not shy about sharing why, and I see a lot of people working on that same change (especially in LGBTQ2+ communities) so I foresee “guys” becoming much less common in the future.

TankieCatgirl, 9 months ago

The female equivalent to “guys” would be “gals” imo.

ratboy, 9 months ago

They may be acting facetious, but “guys” is a gendered term and some folks don’t appreciate being referred to as a guy. Just like some people don’t like being called “dude”. But that’s person to person, anyway. To answer your questions from my perspective (I’m a nonbinary millenial fyi)

Your pronouns are whatever feel reflective of your gender. If you feel that you’re a cisgendered man (someone who aligns with their gender assigned at birth), then yeah he/him is probably accurate. It’s whatever feels most authentic to you.

As for telling people your pronouns, I think it honestly would be really nice for more cisgender dudes to normalize that. It’s pretty uncommon for men to do in my experience, and I think it would show that you want to be respectful of gender nonconforming folks. Also if you share first, it may actually help people to feel more comfortable around you, and then they’ll likely share theirs so you won’t have to ask.

As for pronouns irl I’ve only really met folks who go by he/him, they/them, or she/her. I am not really deep in the queer community, though, and I think it’s more common to find folks who have other different pronouns in those spaces because they feel comfortable using them. It probably also depends on where you live. I live in a pretty queer-friendly town and so trans and other gender nonconforming folks make up a decent chunk of the population.

In conclusion though, I think doing all of the things you just asked about is really great and more men should do. Be a model for other dudes; get people comfy with it because if anyone else gets weird/hostile about it you are in a place of privilege to push back on that, and more of that is needed, especially in the political climate we are living in rn

Thisfox, 9 months ago

I don’t. Plenty of times said “what are you guys doing?” to a group of people which did not include men. I have been addressed the same way plenty, despite being cis female. Possibly it’s different in other countries, but on the east coast of nsw “guys” is gender neutral.

Owl, 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

Are my pronouns he/him?

Probably. Your pronouns are what you want them to be. If someone says “I saw shapis at the park yesterday, but he looked busy so I didn’t say hi to him,” are he and him what you want in those positions?

(I’m going to assume you’re a he/him for the rest of this, but if you want something else let me know and I’ll edit the post.)

Is that how I should tell people?

Yeah, you’d say “my pronouns are he/him.”

Do you actually tell them as you meet them? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue?

In person, it comes up in group meetings where people are making an effort to be inclusive, typically gender diverse or far left crowds. Someone will mention it, or people will just start doing it. You don’t have to be the first person to start adding pronouns. But if you’re in a crowd with someone you know would appreciate it, it’d be nice to start it on your own (without singling them out).

The most awkward option is that you introduce yourself without pronouns, then it goes around the room and people start; in that case just pipe up and say yours are he/him.

How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?

Having it in your profile online is a good idea. Online it’s way more important, since it also combats “there are no girls on the internet.”

And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

If someone has a gender presentation you can’t figure out, ask. If you’re pretty sure, guess. It’s a minor faux pas to get it wrong, but it’s within the realm of the inevitable awkwardness of human interaction, just say sorry once, correct yourself, and move on. Think of it as being as rude as accidentally stepping on someone’s foot. (Think about how rude that’d be if you kept doing it though.)

I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

It is very rare, but they’re out there. People with really unconventional pronouns (I’ve met a fae/faer) are going to understand if you have to slow down when talking about them. Generally they’re chosen by people whose gender identity is nonconventional enough that they’re willing to put up with the hassle to get something that feels more right to them.

shapis, 9 months ago

he and him what you want in those positions?

I had never stopped to think about this. I guess the answer in my partícular case is I literally don’t care which ones they use. Hm. Not sure what that means.

Thank you for the detailed comment.

Owl, 9 months ago

in my partícular case is I literally don’t care which ones they use. Hm. Not sure what that means.

Some people don’t have internal gender feelings and just go with whatever they were assigned at birth out of convenience. I actually started that way and slowly drifted to feeling like my assigned gender much later in life.

Other times, someone realizing that is the first sign they’re trans. If you ask a group of trans people, that’ll probably be some of their origin stories. But I don’t think it’s actually that common overall (trans people are rare!). So what I’d recommend to you, and the other five people reading this that identify with your statement, is that you all sit down and think about your gender feelings a bit, so the trans one can get on with her life.

But anyway, pronouns options for the “assigned male but I don’t care” crowd are he/him, he/them, they/them, he/him/any, and any. For that last one, in a crowd where people are saying pronouns, you’d just say “any pronouns are fine”. (Long time hexbears know I used to rock the he/him/any.)

posthexbearposting, 9 months ago

seconding this. i started as not caring. realised im non-binary but still don’t really care. pronouns don’t really bother me, as for me, how other people view and refer to me doesn’t really affect my internal feelings on my gender. obviously this isn’t the case for all trans people, some definitely want to be seen and referred to as their self-id gender.

saplyng, 9 months ago

Ahh I see, now I get it. I never quite understood the need for the (he/she/them) when meeting new groups because I always felt aggressively apathetic to my own pronouns; sort of a "I don't care what you call me it doesn't change my feeling of me". But your comment and this chain helped that click for me!

morphballganon, 9 months ago (edited 9 months ago)

If your friends refer to you as he/him, and you are happy with that, then those are your pronouns. E.g., “this is my friend so-and-so, he went to x college, but you being a y fan won’t bug him” would be someone using he/him pronouns for you.

Mine are he/him. I don’t bother telling people this on profiles, but I am cis and male-presenting, so people meeting me irl always guess my pronouns right.

On introductions: one totally cool option is to suggest introductions, start with introducing yourself and add your pronouns. This will alert others that you are gender-conscious, which will be welcome by queer and queer-friendly people.

Don’t fret over it, in the same way you wouldn’t fret about whether someone is a vegetarian or not. “Would you like some nuggets?” “Oh I’m vegetarian but thanks” “oh ok cool, I’ll remember in the future.”

Likewise, “hey did you like his idea?” “Oh actually I’m a they/them” “oh ok, I’ll remember in the future.”

520, 9 months ago

I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him?

If you want them to be.

Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?

A decent social cue to use would be if someone has mistakenly used one of the 'default' pronouns (he/him or she/her). Just be polite and understanding about it.

And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

You don't know what you don't know. The only people who would give you shit before you could have reasonably known would be, frankly, someone looking for drama/a fight. Treat those people accordingly.

I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

It is worth keeping in mind that we are talking about a relatively small crowd of people that identify as non-binary or use non-standard pronouns. It is pushed mainly because it prevents exclusion for these people and honestly it costs nothing anyway.

It's also handy for the trans crowd, as although they may use standard pronouns, they might not be the ones they currently appear as.

Lettuceeatlettuce, 9 months ago

First off, thanks for asking and wanting to be more inclusive! :)

For your pronouns, you decide. If you typically go by “he/him” you can keep doing that, it’s up to you.

Depending on the setting, people around you might all introduce themselves with their prefered pronouns, you can introduce yourself with your pronouns if you wish to whenever though.

Similar to how you might tell people a different name you prefer to go by. So if your given name was Nicholas but you prefere to go by “Nick,” you might introduce yourself like, “Nice to meet you, I’m Nicholas, but just call me Nick.” likewise, you can say something like, “Nice to meet you, I’m Nick, He/Him”

Online, it’s fairly common now to have your pronouns in your profile or bio. Again, it’s up to you if you want to put them in your bio or not. Some sites have actual places in the sign up screen or profile page to place your pronouns, it depends on the site/software.

It’s rare for people to get offended IRL if you unintentionally mis-gender them. Most people will correct you politely in the same way they might if you called them by an incorrect name. So if you said, “Hey Nicholas, how are your classes going this semester?” they might say, “Oh, you can just call me Nick. Classes are going well so far, how about yours?”

Often people that know them will correct you politely too if you don’t know and used the wrong pronouns. I’ve had it happen a few times over the years and everybody has always been very polite about it. I just quickly say, “oh sorry, my bad.” and then just make sure to remember their pronouns going forward.

I personally have some family and friends that use they/them vs she/her or he/him. It’s a thing for sure, we all support them and their pronouns. It’s not very tough to get used to, and as long as you correct yourself if you make a mistake, nobody will be hurt. It’s fundamentally about loving them and being inclusive and supportive.

shapis, 9 months ago

Thank you for the comment I added he/him to my bio. Not sure if it’s in the right place.

Lettuceeatlettuce, 9 months ago

No prob, cool deal!

Thiakil, 9 months ago

If I’ve never heard anyone else use a specific pronoun for someone new or I otherwise don’t know, I try to use they/them. Otherwise I use what others do.

And if someone does let you know that a person/themselves prefer a specific one, always say thanks (you can’t be sorry for something you didn’t know!) and do your best to remember for next time.

I also try to use genderless terms like “folks” or just “everyone” instead of “guys”

shapis, 9 months ago

I’ll try to pick up that habit. Thank you. That’s a good suggestion.