What would you do if Capitalism didn't curb your potential and force you to sell most of your time?

I often daydream about how society would be if we were not forced by society to pigeon hole ourselves into a specialized career for maximizing the profits of capitalists, and sell most of our time for it.

The idea of creating an entire identity for you around your “career” and only specializing in one thing would be ridiculous in another universe. Humans have so much natural potential for breadth, but that is just not compatible with capitalism.

This is evident with how most people develop “hobbies” outside of work, like wood working, gardening, electronics, music, etc. This idea of separating “hobbies” and the thing we do most of our lives (work) is ridiculous.

Here’s how my world could be different if I owned my time and dedicated it to the benefit of my own and my community instead of capitalists:

  • more reading, learning and excusing knowledge with others.
  • learn more handy work, like plumbing and wood working. I love customizing my own home!
  • more gardening
  • participate in the transportation system (picking up shifts to drive a bus for example)
  • become a tour guide for my city
  • cook and bake for my neighbors
  • academic research
  • open source software (and non-software) contributions
  • pick up shifts at a café and make coffee, tea and smoothies for people
  • pick up shifts to clean up public spaces, such as parks or my own neighborhood
  • participate in more than one “professions”. I studied one type of engineering but work in a completely different engineering. This already proves I can do both, so why not do both and others?

Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day. It’s unnatural. But somehow we revolve our whole livelihood around if.

pjhenry1216,

Let's not be confused here. Specialization is what allows for free time. If everyone has to farm and hunt, that's all you'd do. Specialization is a good thing for humanity and diverse institutions and industries to arise.

matcha_addict,

Not everyone has to farm and hunt. It was more than 200,000 years ago that humanity figured out how not to get all of us to farm and hunt, way before capitalism ever was a thing.

Speicalization in the context I used does not mean “be an expert at a thing”. It means “Spend most of your time doing just that one thing”. I can see why you were confused, I think my use of “pigeon-holed” was probably better than specializetion.

Lmaydev,

Money was invented before written history began.[1][2] Consequently, any story of how money first developed is mostly based on conjecture and logical inference.

We don’t actually know when money started so it’s hard to say.

But even before money the person with more stuff could acquire more stuff through barter. Even if they weren’t using money it’s still basically capitalism.

BottleOfAlkahest,

The invention of currency basically just introduced universal fungibility to a communities barter system by adding 1 additional step.

lightnsfw,

It’s a good step. You need something else to trade if the guy that raises chickens needs medicine and the pharmacist doesn’t want chicken products.

matcha_addict,

Barter being the predecessor of money is actually false, and has never been supported with sufficient evidence.

From what anthropology tells us, money was introduced by force, not by a natural tendency for humans to barter, and wanting a better way to do it.

And no, that isn’t “basically capitalism”. No “capital” involved here in the sense of capitalism.

jawsua,

Yes we do, money started around temple societies in the fertile crescent to control people and keep them centrally located.

Also, there is no known historical example of a purely barter economy. What’s known now is everything tended to work on an informal gift/reputation economy.

Until money came along, was typically forced upon people, and then if the money system failed, people fell back to a barter system. Neither money or barter are natural for the vast majority of human time and society

magic_lobster_party,

Specialization has always been a thing. Probably more so before. A carpenter wouldn’t just wake up and “nah, I’d rather work with pottery today”. The carpenter probably became a carpenter because their parents passed on their carpentering skills to them, so that’s what they do until they die.

ChaoticEntropy,
@ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk avatar

Hi Mr Smith, another loaf of your god awful bread please.

matcha_addict,

I think you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that maybe my use of specialization is incorrect here.

pjhenry1216,

But the same result would occur in socialism. Even communism. I don't know what you expect to happen in any societal economic structure that would suddenly give you the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want. Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now. And that was the birth of capitalism, not before it. Most didn't own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor. Sure there are exceptions and caveats, but to say capitalism didn't exist back then isn't accurate. Capitalism isn't bad. It's how it's implemented that makes it awful. I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism. But it requires winning of the minds of the populace and that won't happen until folks have an accurate understanding of both capitalism and whatever system you want them to transition to. I don't even know what system you're supporting with your question. It sounds like you're trying to describe some sort of star trek utopia that supposedly is advanced beyond economic systems (yet how many episodes revolved around trade deals between planets and races.... but I digress).

matcha_addict,

Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now.

Are you arguing that ancient societies had “jobs”, and in the same way that we do nowadays? I don’t intend to be rude (and sorry if I come off that way), but a simple Google search will tell you that’s false, but I’d be glad to cite you exact resources as well.

And that was the birth of capitalism

While the exact beginning of capitalism may be a subject of a little debate, no expert on the matter believes it goes that far back. Again, simple Google search reveals it, and I’ll be glad to cite you resources if you want.

Most didn’t own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor.

This wasn’t always true. There was a time that preceded class society. And not all class society is capitalism.

but to say capitalism didn’t exist back then isn’t accurate.

It is the scientific consensus that it did not.

I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism

Not sure what you mean here. Can you please elaborate?

whatever system you want them to transition to

It is simple. Instead of orienting society around profits and capital, we orient it around bettering the human condition. Instead of working our days to generate more profit for capitalists in exchange for money to buy necessities, we work to serve our interests and our own communities. So much wasted labor is suddenly removed.

CrimeDad,

Yes, but if we only have to work on our specializations for 16 hours a week each instead of 40+, we would have a lot more time for other good stuff, whether it’s personal development, supporting other specialists, or just hanging out.

Mudface,

Think about if you had a flat tire in your car. You go to get another tire to replace the one with a hole in it.

But the tire factory only manufactures 300 tires a day. Because they only have a handful of employees who feel like making tires and they only really want to work around 10 hours a week.

Now tires are pretty rare. And that means they are difficult to find. Also, rarity is a supply and demand thing, so now tires are also incredibly expensive. People want a lot of them, but the tire manufacturing plant doesn’t make enough.

Oh, and while you were inside the shop being surprised at the 22 month wait for your replacement tire, and the $3,500 price tag for just the single tire, the other 3 tires were stolen off your car in the parking lot.

Cause people don’t want to pay those prices, or wait that amount of time, which has lead to a massive car tire black market

Lmaydev,

People would use public transport a lot more. Resulting in much better infrastructure.

matcha_addict,

First of all, I will start with saying that this is a highly unlikely scenario, because modern technology already allows us way way more tires that we need with a fraction of the labor time we put. But let us assume not and entertain this a bit.

This is a perfect example where members of society will find themselves in a situation where there is a big need for tires that is not being met. Instead of hand wavingly complaining and hoping the government or corporations ramp up production, we remember we don’t live under capitalism anymore. We are masters of our own destiny! society is now oriented around human need and wants, not profits! Our prime motivation for working is not to please capitalists in exchange for earning enough to live and a little more. It is to serve the interests of ourselves and our communities, and this is a prime example of a need of ourselves and communities.

So because we are unhappy with the state of tires, we decide to contribute more of the large amount of free time we have to produce more tires (and you only need a tiny fraction of humanity to do this. Consider how many people work in the tire industry right now). The fluidity afforded to us by having both free time and the control over production is a lot greater than you think. We do not even have to imagine this. Many historical civilizations did this already. We can only do better because technology grants us a million times the ability they had to produce.

rbesfe,

Historical civilizations were not producing tires or any goods for that matter at industrial scales, so that comparison is useless. If you think that the only reason profit motives exist today is to “please capitalists”, you need to do some more reading into how the industrial economy works.

matcha_addict,

We only got to producing more advanced things like tires because of how technology made things so much easier to produce with a fraction of the labor time. This is a continuing trend in history.

And yes I do think that society is oriented around profits (and pleasing capitalists, which happens by producing profits. I find it ironic that you chose this truism to argue against lmao). I hope you don’t expect a response to that second part, because it is not argument and not worth responding to.

CrimeDad,

Why do we need tire factories working employees 40+ hours a week to make enough tires for everyone? Just hire enough workers so that they all have enough time for a life outside of work. Maybe with a little bit of central planning, we could also reduce the demand for tires by figuring out how to get people to drive less.

Mudface,

You do understand what an analogy used for the purpose of illustrating a point is, right?

What is it with people and being literal to the point of making a conversation painful?

I could explain all of your questions for you, but it takes a lot of groundwork laying that you should have probably picked up on your own by now, and at least a little bit from the education system.

Is all they teach you in school how great Karl Marx is? Did you learn how businesses operate? Assets, liabilities, profit margins, overhead, OSHA, etc?

C-level executives usually set an operational budget per business department. There is a labour budget included in that. It’s a managers duty to use that budget to fill out the labour needs of the business, based on sales and sales forecasts and any other upcoming business changes.

It’s not really as easy as ‘just hire everyone who walks in the door and don’t enforce any attendance policies, if they want to work they’ll show up. Sure, some days we will have more than we need, and other days we won’t have enough, but if the communities needs more tires, I’m sure they’ll just come in and do the right thing.’

Seriously, have you ever had to depend on someone doing their job before? I’m guessing not.

Anyway, we aren’t really talking about societies need for tires, we are talking about capitalism

CrimeDad,

It is the prerogative of the “C-level executives” to maximize the rate of exploitation on behalf of the bourgeoisie. When the working class eventually takes power from the bourgeoisie, that prerogative becomes obsolete (and so do those parasitic executives). Instead of utilizing improvements in productivity to increase the wealth going to the bourgeoisie, they can instead be used to improve the well-being of the working class.

So, if it turns out that we really need more tires, or whatever fits your analogy, then we’ll just make more tires. However, the wealth that would have been syphoned off to the idle owner class and their lackeys will instead stay under the control of the workers. Therefore, as the revolution progresses, the workers will gain more and more time, energy, and opportunity for individual and communal fulfillment.

Mudface,

Omg, bro don’t spout this communist manifesto shit at me please!

And to the second part “then we’ll just make more tires” is where the devil is in the details. How is that organized? How is that, more importantly, enforced?

You can’t just “bourgeoisie” and the. “We’ll just make more” and skirt off into the sunset. How will we, how exactly will we, make more tires?

Like really dive in here, because this is where the rubber meets the road. How do we ‘just make more’? Where do the workers come from? How do they know we even need to make more tires? Who tells them? And what happens if …. No one shows up to make any more tires?

What if everyone is too busy hiking, or learning a new language, or doing art or writing great novels to make more tires?

CrimeDad,

If you really want to dive in then just go and read Capital. Otherwise, the short and sweet of it is that it would really be up to the workers. The particular solutions will probably vary depending on the industry, location, the status of the revolution and whatnot, but it might involve combinations of time banks, computer AIs, human engineers just doing the math, and/or even some forms of markets and price signals.

Zippy,

Heard that before. Remember the USSR?

Why would anyone with a bit of critical thinking believe that would be a good model to try again. It is such a joke.

CrimeDad,

The critical thinker would consider that maybe the material conditions of the people of the former USSR would be better if dissolution never happened, that they are much better even 30 years after dissolution than if the USSR never happened in the first place.

Zippy,

No they fucking wouldn’t. The USSR was completely failing and was being propped up by using up every resource and relying on old technologies to not break down. The house was slowly deteriorating and the sooner they left that model the sooner they could get on track to a sustainable system.

Unfortunately there was so little left after years of communism that it was pretty hard to kick start a functional economy. Communism just ingrained corruption so deep it is hard to invest there. Then you got a dictator type of government that again is centralizing much of their output and this is what you get. Shit economy with incredible stability.

Pretty much same in any country that has any model like that.

oroboros,

This is quite an in depth solution to sortof what you’re talking about

www.thevenusproject.com

It really only covers making sure people are fed, housed and watered. Personally I think cars are a pain in the arse, I’d rather run or cycle everywhere, but then that’s not everybody. If you really liked them, and you were fed, housed and watered, you’d definitely have time to look at building or contributing to building one, assuming people don’t tell you to fuck off because it’s a noisy, smelly death trap…

Unfortunately, the likelihood would be that a lot of people couldn’t handle being in the same kind of housing as everyone else, because they believe they’re special. But logically this makes much more sense that what we’re currently doing. Capitalism is extremely wasteful.

And before you say, well you’d never get people to agree to this. I think the tankies/fascists have solutions to that problem, you’re just encouraging them…

snek,

You do understand what an analogy used for the purpose of illustrating a point is, right?

Yes, we all get that. Not sure what you gain from saying that. It good mental exercise to accept the modifications people make to your anology. Otherwise, we’re not “thinking together”.

Zippy,

Central planning has not been a real benefit to countries that employ it heavily. You just need to look at China, Venezuela, USSR to see the results of current and past ones. It is pretty much a joke.

CrimeDad,

Considering where they started or what they’re up against, the countries you mentioned do (or did, in the case of the USSR) incredibly well.

Zippy,

Bullshit. The USSR was a house of cards by then end. If it was doing at all well, it would still exist. It same as you stopping all maintenance on your house, car, not buying any cloth for years. Ya you can live well for some time but eventually your car breaks, your house starts to leak and you look like shit.

The USSR may have been able to survive a few more years but the longer they tried that model, the worse off each person would have been and the more unstable they would have become.

TacoButtPlug,
@TacoButtPlug@sh.itjust.works avatar

World War II is a working example of your hypothetical. The country (USA*) had to ration food, shoes, metal, paper, and rubber - so therefore even tires - to name a few. This all happened under capitalism. The country complied and to even make up for the loss of product women joined the workforce - i.e. Rosie the Riveter. I’m not trying to get into an argument but I wanted to point out your example already came and went and the country responded as it would under either economic system.

Rescuer6394,

i’ve worked for 20h/w and 40h/w. i think 30/32 is a good balance

CrimeDad,

People are entitled to their preferences. They should also be entitled to overtime after some amount of hours per week that’s lower than forty, I think whatever it takes to bring the rate of unemployment to practically zero.

Zippy,

Typically when unemployment is around 4 percent, that is everyone working that wants to work. The 4 percent is people between jobs and people that are kind of looking for work but not in a rush to work. It difficult to be under that number.

In other words we are often at a point where unemployment is at zero. 4 percent being zero.

CrimeDad,

I understand and kind of agree with the idea that there is some small amount of unemployment that is practically unavoidable, however, I’m not sure that 4% is it. Per the latest US employment report, we’re at 3.8%. So, it seems like we should set the limbo bar lower than 4%.

That report also breaks down the unemployment rate by demographic and it seems to vary significantly between groups. To say that we are at full employment when blacks and hispanics have about 2% greater unemployment than whites and asians seems incorrect. The minimum practical unemployment rate for all of these groups should be the same. So, if we’re going to adjust OT in order to help achieve full employment, we should be looking at the unemployment rate for the most unemployed race/gender group.

There are also of course problems with how unemployment is measured and calculated, but I suppose that’s a little besides the point.

Zippy,

Regionally there will always be variances. Take Chicago and the loss of the auto industry. It took 25 (???) years for that to clean out. There was nothing to replace it rapidly so either people needed to move or they waited it out till new business evolved. Areas like that will skew the average higher. Maybe you could get an extra percentage nationally but I would say it is pretty close to zero at the moment.

Mudface,

Wish I could upvote this 10x

mountainCalledMonkey,

actually, hunter-gatherer communities ‘work’ significantly less time than we do in our corporate jobs. farming is a different story: here’s one study: www.sciencedaily.com/releases/…/190520115646.htm

rbesfe,

They also have sky high infant mortality rates

matcha_addict,

Is it because they work less, or is it possibly because our technology, sanitary practices, medical expertise and ability to treat diseases based on thousands of years of trials far exceeds there?

I bet it’s because they worked less.

Fizz,
@Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

You can read that study and see that it only represents one instance where hunter gathers were more efficient than farmers in the same region. You cant use that to say to our current system is less efficient. I hate pop science so much its unreal.

w2qw,

It’s also pretty evident that we could not sustain the current population on preindustrial farming let alone hunter gathering.

matcha_addict,

How about this then?

www.ft.com/…/dd71dc3-4566-48e0-a1d9-3e8bd2b3f60f

PRUSSIA_x86,

if only monke had toilet paper and modern comforts

ScreaminOctopus,

That would then mean we would have to support the entire food supply on hunting rather than farming for this to be true, so basically 90% of the population would have to die

matcha_addict,

Are you thinking that OP is proposing we go back to hunting? I can guarantee that is not what was meant here.

ScreaminOctopus,

He basically is, he states that I hunter gathering societies that much less work was done, but significantly more in farming societies as a response to another poster saying specialization and careers are a significant contributor to the free time we do have. If he’s not suggesting a hunting society is better I don’t know what the point of his comment is.

snek,

I remember reading in The Mating Mind that since hunter gatherer societies long ago had more leisure time, they could spend it socializing, and growing their brain.

PixxlMan,

Yup. Hunter gatherers has a lot of free time. Honestly, I think it was pretty swell, except for lack of medical ability perhaps.

TrismegistusMx,
@TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world avatar

There’s no efficiency while we’re supporting a welfare class of bourgeoisie.

Glide,

Yeah, OPs got the spirit but misses the point. We are being pressured to sell our time at a minimum of 40 hours every week. It’s thanks to specialization (and the technology that developed from it) that this quantity of of time is grossly over-allocated. Trade and travel allowed people to create better products in less time, so people were no longer very literally working to live, day-in, day-out. Unfortunately wages are kept low, wealth is kept centralized and culture continues to place value on excess so that we’re continually convinced that we “have” to work as many hours as we can find.

matcha_addict,

I don’t understand what you think I missed. When I said “specialization”, I meant the idea of just doing one thing and one thing only as a “career”. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t specialize or that people won’t. But if I specialize in construction labor, with the extra time awarded to me I could also participate in design if I wanted.

9point6,

I work as a software engineer and I’m also one of these people that just gets a kick out of making things. So I’d probably do some more of that, just not for an employer. Even more contributions to open source would be likely as you’ve already highlighted.

Would probably build more physical machines/contraptions/electronic doo-dads that I don’t have the time or energy to make today. That and I’d probably make more music, or more accurately, finish more music.

Probably grow more vegetables too, but currently that’s limited by space anyway.

shapesandstuff,

or more accurately, finish more music.

I felt that one in my bones

metaStatic,

art is never finished, only abandoned

myersguy,

If I just had one more synthesizer…

chunkystyles,

I’m very similar. I got into home automation and building custom IoT devices as part of that.

9point6,

Haha we’re very similar indeed, I’ve got Pis dotted around my house doing various things, and recently jammed one of those tiny D1 mini ESP modules into a cheap IKEA air quality sensor so I could track it over time in home assistant.

Not done much more than that in terms of custom IoT devices currently, I’ve got a few more of those D1 minis left and thinking of putting one in my coffee machine (and covering it in a big blob of silicone). What have you built? I’m always open to ideas

chunkystyles,

My wife and I moved across the country and bought a 5 room bed and breakfast 2 years ago. Most of my automation and the devices I’ve created are geared towards the BnB. So lots of lights turning on and off based on time of day and whether or not we have guests. I wrote a web scraper to pull down guest data to push into Home Assistant. One of the really nice things that provides is last 4 digits of phone numbers get programmed into the front door lock and deleted when they check out. That code is here and is not terribly well organized github.com/chunkystyles/reservationsScraper

I created a salt tank level sensor for my water softener using a pair of Arduinos communicating over 400mhz RF. If I were redoing this one, I’d just do an ESP device. I also built a doorbell sensor that literally just has a photo resistor glued to the LED on one of the doorbell receivers. The code for both of those is here github.com/chunkystyles/arduinoSketches

I created touch screen controllers for mini-splits in guest rooms twice. The first version used M5 Stack Core 2 devices that was OK. The tiny screen wasn’t great. And it was programmed using M5’s visual block programming and it was a pain.

The second version is using a 3.5 inch screen and works way better. That code is here github.com/chunkystyles/makerfabs_hvac_remote

I have a project that I need to get started on. We have a small ice maker in our lobby and I need a device to monitor the door being left open, and whether the scoop was put back in its holder. The first part is self explanatory. The second part is because the ice refills from the top, and if someone leaves the scoop in the ice maker, it will get covered up by fresh ice. For that, I’m probably going to reuse one of the M5 Stacks and do a magnetic door sensor, and for the scoop holder a small limit switch that will trigger when the handle is in its normal place.

9point6,

Man, you’re living a dream over there. As you’d expect, given I’m not running a BnB, your ideas don’t have an immediate application to my life, but damn am I impressed!

Could you tell me more about the 400mhz radios? I had a quick look at the code and it looks like you’re delegating to a transceiver module or something if I’m reading correctly

chunkystyles,

The BnB thing certainly is interesting. I like it, but it’s not what I expected.

The radios I’m using are these www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09KY28VH8

I’m fairly sure the driver I’m using is this github.com/PaulStoffregen/RadioHead/tree/master It’s been a while since I worked on these.

So one device has an ultrasonic distance sensor and a radio transmitter. It just takes a reading and transmits is once an hour.

The other device monitors the doorbell and has the radio receiver on it. Both of those things are sent to the serial output and monitored by Node-RED.

imgur.com/a/SQdc95d

The transmitter and receiver aren’t terribly far apart. They’re probably like 30 feet or so, but in the basement, with walls in between them. I didn’t do any testing on how far apart they worked, but 433mhz is a pretty sturdy frequency and these have been rock solid. With the driver, they’re actually super easy to use, too.

9point6,

Nice one, thanks for the detailed response! It seems like a pretty straightforward solution for simple ad-hoc connectivity. Definitely one to keep in mind

Not least of all, who knows, maybe I’ll have a BnB one day!

coolcat1711,

I’ve almost been getting upset with engineering as my career because I really enjoy doing it, but am absolutely exhausted with doing it at work that I can never bring myself to do it at home. All my hobby PCB designs or programming projects take a back seat because they require a lot of time and thought.

It really is a shame that STEM pays so highly that it may as well be a requirement if you’re not going to do trades or something with a boatload of overtime attached to it.

Hamartiogonic,
@Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz avatar

If I was born 100 earlier, I’m pretty sure I would have been building all sorts of crazy contraptions out of wood and metal. I would have like a collection of different mouse traps, valves, pumps, engines, turbines and all that. Instead, I have code and calculations now, but that’s ok too.

Bye,

I would cut cars in half and weld them into the other halves of other cars

Today,

Make hybrids?

Zaphod,

Lenght or width wise?

Palerider,
@Palerider@feddit.uk avatar

Diagonally.

Bye,

Like imagine taking a big ol dump truck, and putting the back from a regular pickup on it so it’s just a monster pickup. Saw one like that once.

Or imagine a sports car front, with a station wagon back. Like a shooting brake but more shootier.

Or utes like they have in Australia, love those

myersguy,

Yes.

coltorl,

Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day.

Speak for yourself, I like routine and being rewarded for working hard.

ComradePorkRoll,

Do you really get rewarded for working hard? Every time I’ve gone above and beyond for my job it becomes and expectation with no increase in pay. There is no reward for us “no skill” jobs that somehow are the very foundation of this god forsaken societal system we uphold.

coltorl,

I’ve left jobs when I don’t get rewarded for hard work. Thankfully we live in a free market that allows me to also freely choose my employer and occupation.

bermuda,

freely choose my employer and occupation.

As long as you meet the dozens of credentials to work for a place, as well as the 5 to 10 hidden ones they don’t tell you about in the job listing or the interview.

coltorl,

That sounds salty.

matcha_addict,

Are you denying it’s reality?

coltorl,

No, I’m skeptical because it sounds more like disillusionment.

matcha_addict,

You don’t think that companies have dozens of credentials and requirements for a job? And hidden ones as well? This is very well documented. The first one is easily verified by looking at indeed.com. I take it you’ve never applied for a job before?

coltorl,

yes I am chronically unemployed and I blame the “hidden” requirements boogeyman for my troubles

matcha_addict,

How many reply chains does it take you to stop avoiding questions? 😁 if you can’t answer and think it’ll make you look bad, you already look pretty bad by avoiding it :)

coltorl,

You must have me confused for someone else, I am not on any other reply chain except this one.

lightnsfw,

Credentials exist for a reason.

sexual_tomato,

I’d still be a programmer. I’d work on open source projects 100% of the time. It’s something I love to do.

Man’s got to eat though. I still work in an area that makes the world slightly less shitty though, so it’s not all bad.

Sarazil,
@Sarazil@kbin.social avatar

I run a goth night once every other month.
I visit friends quite often whenever I want to.
I get up and start my day when I feel like it.
I play with code and build web toys.
I'm a freelance IT guy. I could, if I wanted to, earn a lot more than I do, but my time is worth more than money. It is possible to do, even in this world where everyone is told that you need a 'career' and to work for a company, although a lot more work is needed to freeing other careers from the obligation of the grind.
Don't give up hope, unionise, demand respect, buy a guillotine, and keep an eye out for a way to get what you need and to contribute to society or your community without signing your life away.

(Yes, some people will never get the opportunity. And that, frankly, pisses me off no end. But don't lose hope until you're dead.)

Zippy,

Your a freelance IT guy and you are suggesting to unionize? Your the guy companies use when they don’t want unions.

Sarazil,
@Sarazil@kbin.social avatar

I don't work for big companies, I support small businesses where a full-time IT guy doesn't make sense, and old people who are struggling to get their internet working because their internet explorer icon disappeared. Additionally, if I was contacted by a company to cover them whilst their employees are striking, I'd turn them down.

Zippy,

So your suggesting the small companies don’t unionize as you got them?

Honestly your stance is a bit disingenuous. Unions do not like your model as you take away work that could be done under a union.

Sarazil,
@Sarazil@kbin.social avatar

It's clear you don't understand my business. A kebab house does not hire a full time IT guy, they hire someone like me when needed. Similarly, they don't hire a full-time plumber for their toilets, a full-time builder to repair broken tiles, or a full time electrician to repair their electronics.

As for unionising, I'd support such businesses unionising, and would not help management stop them, even if they are my clients.

Some perspective for you, because you're looking for an enemy here: Just because I got sick of working under middle management doesn't mean I don't need to be able to afford food and rent. Under the current state of affairs, you have to work for someone, or you have to work for yourself. The only alternative is social support systems which differ nation to nation. If looking at the big CEOs, yeah, you're looking at arsewipes. No way they got there without stepping on people. But the farther down you go, the more normal people you meet. Owning or running a business is not the same as taking advantage of people, and being self-employed is not the same as union busting.

I am not your enemy here, but I'm also not going to respond to you anymore. I wish you well, but this is not worth my time.

Zippy,

Not suggesting you are my enemy but there are union IT shops that your model would certainly take work away.

cubedsteaks, (edited )

I’d have more time to become a better artist.

edit: what the fuck was that unwarranted shitty comment.

metaStatic,

and still wouldn't

matcha_addict,

So the question made you so angry, you started projecting your anger over people answering it? LOL

matcha_addict, (edited )

dont worry about that other commenter. They’re angry that their argument in another comment was argued against, and now they look stupid.

cubedsteaks,

Thanks. It was so out of left field. Like damn, I’ve never even posted my art on lemmy for anyone to know.

Batmancer,

They were probably projecting and expressing their disappointments in not becoming their own ideal self. Anyways! My answer was going to be taking in all the wonderful art and creations people like you would have the freedom to create.

cubedsteaks,

Yeah! We’d all have time to do the things we’re passionate about.

OceanSoap,

I like my job. It’s not a hobby, but it also ensures I don’t burn out in my hobbies, which happened when I initially tried to make a hobby my job.

Mudface,

Why is there so much communist content on lemmy?

xenspidey,

I know, it’s crazy. Like all of a sudden capitalism is evil. It baffles my mind. Like do people actually believe this stuff?

matcha_addict,

Capitalism has been evil for a long while I would say, and this has been written about for a long while now.

xenspidey,

Capitalism has never been evil, people have been evil. Yes, that has been written about for a long time, but it seems like Lemmy has gone off the rails recently

nicktron,
@nicktron@kbin.social avatar

Look at the state of the world right now. It’s pretty bleak - capitalism is the cause of all of this. It had its good days, sure, but in the end capitalism + greed has ruined it for everyone.

xenspidey,

You are very much incorrect there, capitalism isn’t the cause of any bleakness you may be seeing. Greed and more importantly cronyism in the government is the real issue

nora,

Capitalism allows there to be a wealthy, ruling class that can ruin the world with their greed.

darq,
@darq@kbin.social avatar

capitalism isn’t the cause of any bleakness you may be seeing.

Bullcrap.

Greed and more importantly cronyism in the government is the real issue

Greed and cronyism which is directly incentivised and rewarded under capitalism.

SynopticVision,

All of a sudden? Yeah, if over a century of critique counts as “all of a sudden”

xenspidey,

Lemmy appears to be going more and more anti-capitalist is all I’m saying. There will always be detractors of any system.

hoodatninja,
@hoodatninja@kbin.social avatar

I’m hardly a communist but if this is the first time you’re hearing “capitalism is evil” you live in quite the bubble lol

At the very least I hope you can be critical of the system.

xenspidey,

Absolutely not the first time, but is seems like Lemmy as a whole is very anti-capitalist. I can be critical of any system, all systems have flaws. However, I believe that capitalism is the best system there is.

nora,

OK so you’re just in an environment where a lot of people disagree. Plenty of online spaces are full of people who are like-minded to you. Lemmy is this way because a lot of anti-capitalists are drawn to the idea of decentralized federation not controlled by a corporation.

xenspidey,

That’s what is funny, I am drawn to the idea of decentralized federation as a capitalist because I don’t want stuff controlled by the government.

matcha_addict,

I mean maybe you should leave lemmy if you can’t handle differing opinions. Reddit would love to have you.

xenspidey,

I can handle differing opinions just fine, I left Reddit and will not be returning.

matcha_addict,

I love how the mere idea of thinking about a better world away from capitalism immediately says “communism!” to you people, and you don’t see the irony of it

Mudface,

It’s pretty obvious by the language you’re using that you’re a communist ‘selling your time to capitalists’ isn’t really very subtle

SynopticVision,

It’s called “describing the reality of capitalist economy” not “being a communist”

Mudface,

The reality of capitalist economies has turned out to be: Living in the freest and richest nations the world has ever seen. If you’re too hot you can set the thermostat to cool down and if you’re too cold you can just turn the heat up.

You have ample choices for food, leisure and activity. More than anyone else has ever had in all of human history.

You only need to work a fraction of an hour for a meal, instead of all day long (and often working for days on end and not ever bringing home anything to eat)

You’re the most comfortable any human has ever been. Surviving is so easy for you, you feel the need to complain that ITS NOT EASY ENOUGH.

nicktron,
@nicktron@kbin.social avatar

Tell everyone you’ve never had to experience hardship without telling everyone you’ve never had to experience hardship.

Millions of Americans have to choose between feeding themselves and housing themselves. You are hardly the “freest” country, haha. Richest? Sure just like every other wealthy country, the vast majority of the wealth is held by the people who tell you how to live your life.

Get a grip pal.

Mudface,

What’s your expectation? You want to be the richest man in the world? Do you want everyone to be equivalent to the richest man in the world?

You’re not making any sense. We all experience hardship.

I’m not American, but what I’m talking about applies to Americans, or anyone in a wealthy western country.

The poverty of western countries isn’t even real poverty. What looks poor to you and I is luxurious to true poverty, or to our ancestors.

hoodatninja,
@hoodatninja@kbin.social avatar

What’s your expectation? You want to be the richest man in the world?

The fact that you are asking this as an absurd question while not recognizing this is exactly the false prize capitalism promises everybody is kind of incredible.

What’s the line? “No one is America is poor. They’re just temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” Which is why some of the lowest earners in our country still somehow think Elon Musk pays too much in taxes.

Mudface,

Seriously, what is your expectation? What standard of living and what level of effort are you not reaching, or are extending too much effort to achieve?

Why is life not coming close to satisfying you? Is it because people have more than you do? Is it because people have less?

I think stating expectations is pretty important.

Me? I want to earn enough to support myself, my family a couple of dogs, have two cars and a house and raise smart and healthy and vibrant children.

I want a lifestyle where I can travel once in awhile, I can pay for the things I enjoy in my leisure time and recreation.

I want to send my kids to summer camp and soccer and gymnastics, I want to buy my wife things she likes for Christmas and birthdays and anniversaries.

If I want all of these things, I have to go out and get them. If I wait for the government to give them to me, they’ll never come.

Now are your expectations in line with, or above or below what mine are? Does it bother you that people have more than you do?

I don’t need a yatch, or my own spaceship. I wouldn’t even know what to do with those things if I did have them.

hoodatninja,
@hoodatninja@kbin.social avatar

I’m not sure you’re responding to the correct person as I have no idea what prompted those questions and this has literally nothing to do with what I said. When did I say my life wasn’t good enough? Or anything about the broad standard of living where I live?

Mudface,

It could be, my bad if so.

I’m having a dozen conversations right now and I suspect this lemmy app I’m using links me incorrectly sometimes.

irmoz,

Those advances were not created by capitalism.

They were created during capitalism. Huge difference.

Slavery didn’t create agriculture.

Feudalism didn’t create brickwork.

Mudface,

Well let’s just say that none of these things were created during communism

irmoz, (edited )

…and? That’s kind of pointless to say. We’re living under capitalism, so of course it happened under capitalism. It can’t magically happen under communism if we’re not living in communism, can it?

Also, while not communist (though nominally aimed towards it), elsewhere in the world, socialist governments definitely managed to achieve incredible feats of modernisation in starkly short amounts of time. Both China and the USSR went from mainly peasant farmers to industrial giants in mere decades.

People work and create because it’s what humans do, under any economic system. What changes is who it’s made for and who profits. Under capitalism, it’s made for capitalists to profit them. Under communism, it’s made for fellow workers to profit the workers.

matcha_addict,

If you’re too hot you can set the thermostat to cool down and if you’re too cold you can just turn the heat up.

I sure am thankful for HVAC technology, and the development of science and human technology in general that has been happening since way before capitalism.

You have ample choices for food

I love the agricultural revolution from hundreds of thousands of years ago! And tractors.

You only need to work a fraction of an hour for a meal, instead of all day long

Okay now, pre-industrial societies did not work an entire day for a single meal lmao. That’s something you’d see in capitalism or slavery. The vast majority of human history did not involve that much work.

You’re the most comfortable any human has ever been.

Thanks for technological advancements and not-capitalism!

. Surviving is so easy for you, you feel the need to complain that ITS NOT EASY ENOUGH.

What a boomer statement lmao. Isn’t it ironic that you complain about other people critiquing society, and lash out in caps lock? What if I told you that people have critiqued society since antiquity? I highly recommend you pick up a book. You’ll learn something or two!

iegod,

Just a heads up you are both discussing in bad faith and neither of you will make any strides with the other.

matcha_addict,

You can summarize my argument in two:

  • no, these things are not attributed to capitalism. They were not a direct cause of capitalism. They occurred during capitalism (and some did before).
  • complaining about people complaining about society is not even an argument worth responding to, let alone arguing it’s some recent phenomenon when you can easily verify it has happened for as long as we’ve had writing.
darq,
@darq@kbin.social avatar

Not every criticism of capitalism is communism.

But also, is it any wonder that a platform built without a profit incentive and centred around the concepts of mutual voluntary interaction rather than hierarchical control would attract a more anti-capitalist userbase?

Mudface,

I’m generally baffled that an anti-capitalist user base even exists to be attracted at all.

Having criticism is one thing, but this thread just reads like State Propoganda from the CCCP

darq,
@darq@kbin.social avatar

And I'm genuinely baffled that anyone can still support modern day capitalism, given the state of the world.

Mudface,

Sure thing, man

I mean no way are you better off than cavemen, hunter getherers, Cubans, Venezuelans, 1940’s Germany or the old USSR.

Medieval England, would you rather live there than here?

Where is this non-capitalist utopia that you’re thinking of when you’re saying this?

darq,
@darq@kbin.social avatar

I just don't make the mistake of attributing every advancement of human living conditions to capitalism, all while conveniently omitting all of the horrible conditions capitalism also creates.

Mudface,

Let me just explain something very simple here. The base state of man is suffering.

That’s our default. That’s how living works.

What our system has done is alleviate so much of that base suffering that now, we are so incredibly unused to any real suffering that we just make up things to be ‘hurt’ over.

Capitalism has removed almost all of that base suffering from your life. The ‘horrible conditions’ capitalism ‘creates’ is simply handing you much much too cushy of a life.

I mean, who had time to be offended when you’re too busy trying not to starve to death, hiding in the bushes with a spear, hoping a rabbits gonna run by.

darq,
@darq@kbin.social avatar

Let me just explain something very simple here.

No. Sod off with your "explanation" you condescending prick.

Literally just doing the thing I mentioned in my last comment, making "the mistake of attributing every advancement of human living conditions to capitalism, all while conveniently omitting all of the horrible conditions capitalism also creates."

Mudface,

You can misunderstand how life works all you want.

Go be miserable somewhere else

darq,
@darq@kbin.social avatar

Go be miserable somewhere else

You are using an open source platform, developed without a profit incentive, running on one of the most impactful publicly-funded infrastructure developments of our lifetimes, which is also powered by near countless free-and-open-source tech stacks.

You are on our turf, buddy.

You go somewhere else.

Mudface,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    irmoz,

    Run out of arguments, so you resort to childish insults.

    El_Rocha,

    You are using an open source platform, developed without a profit incentive, running on one of the most impactful publicly-funded infrastructure developments of our lifetimes, which is also powered by near countless free-and-open-source tech stacks.

    I can almost guarantee every single physical thing you used to type that was the product of capitalism based optimization.

    darq,
    @darq@kbin.social avatar

    Technological development is not uniquely the product of capitalism.

    El_Rocha,

    Didn’t say it was.

    But here specifically I’m refering to optimization, as in changes the manufacturer did to either streamline the production and make it more efficient (cheaper) or to differentiate from similar products to make it more appealing.

    Surely you chose your devices on some sort of criterea and other people would come to a different choice.

    This I believe can only happen under capitalism.

    darq,
    @darq@kbin.social avatar

    Oh, yes capitalism has optimised my devices. But I think that's often bad thing. Because many of those optimisations weren't for my benefit. In fact a huge number of them are directly detrimental to me.

    The tech was an open platform focused on solving problems of the people working on it. And then capitalism "optimised" it by adding advertising and spyware, locking it down, removing the ability to control or repair it, and artificially obseleting it in order to drive further sales. All at the expense of the user, and the environment.

    The optimisations also often removed user choice and product differentiation, rather than added them.

    This I believe can only happen under capitalism.

    I don't think I can imagine a statement more false than this.

    Capitalism increasing the availability of choice, only so long as those choices are profitable. If they are not profitable, those choices are actively removed. I used to be able to find multitudes of devices that were user-maintainable, had replaceable batteries and expandable storage. But those choices are not profitable, and so they get removed.

    Technology would look different under a different economic system. Likely in some ways worse, but in other ways better.

    nicktron,
    @nicktron@kbin.social avatar

    Everything you’re spouting as a gift from capitalism is exactly what capitalism has taught you to say in its defence.

    irmoz,

    You’re just parroting Thomas Hobbes uncritically

    Listen to some other philisophers

    Mudface,

    Oh! Yes, I also remember 10th grade philosophy class. Was it your first week this week?

    Back to school is always fun

    irmoz,

    Yes… it’s obvious you remember it… because you were the one quoting it.

    Odd tactic you’re using, mate. I told you to broaden the horizons of what philosophies you listen to, because it’s clear you’re new to the realm and you… are trying to somehow turn it round and suggest I’m the one that’s new?

    How exactly did you expect this to play out?

    iByteABit,

    He is running out of capitalist propaganda bullet points so he’s starting to lose it

    nora,

    I’m sorry what do you think happened before capitalism existed? Do you think that all Indigenous peoples were struggling to survive before white colonists came and enslaved them? Capitalism has created suffering around the globe.

    El_Rocha,

    Wait wait, do you think the rest of the world was in perfect harmony until the white man came?

    AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

    Where the fuck do you think African slaves came from? Most europeans didn’t enslave them, they just bought them in the well established african slave markets after other africans and arabs enslaved them first.

    In North America, do you think the indians only started scalping when the europeans appeared, or that it was a common practice in tribes that were at constant war with each other?

    In South Africa a lot of the land europeans got was payment from tribes for help fighting other tribes.

    Did europeans cause extra suffering in the places they colonized? Definitly.

    Were those places peaceful before that? Fuck off.

    nora,

    I’m not pretending that every place that Europeans colonized was some utopia before but Colonialism made all of these places worse. On top of that you’re completely generalizing huge groups of people and their practices.

    matcha_addict,

    Oh yeah, native American scalping was so bad. Surely worse than Europeans coming in and massacring 100 million native Americans, expelling them from their homes year after year, torturing them for existing, enslaving an African population, building a nation on their backs, then invading nearly the entire earth, causing mass suffering.

    Oh yeah where were we? Scalping and inner-tribe fights. Man that was wild!

    El_Rocha,

    I said in my comment that Europeans made it worse. I was just saying that those places were never peaceful to begin with.

    matcha_addict,

    I love hearing this delusional thinking. “we actually shouldn’t complain about anything, we only complain because we have it better! So if things got even betterer, we would complain morer!! Get it?”

    If you’re so into suffering, why do you want to involve everyone else in it? We want a better world. No one will force you to live happily.

    HatchetHaro,
    @HatchetHaro@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Look, I’m from Hong Kong, and I despise the CCP.

    This is nowhere near anything like the CCP.

    rjs001,
    @rjs001@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    They said the CCCP. Not the “CCP”. Those are different things. Anyway, you mean the CPC as you currently have the name wrong even if they wrote CCP.

    Zippy,

    Apparently one of the instances is extremely pro communism.

    Even though communism has been proven historically to be detrimental by nearly every metric. Detrimental economically, detrimental environmentally, detrimental socially, and very much against basic human rights.

    Mudface,

    The pro-communists call normal people the extremists

    Zippy,

    Well they can move to Russia and check out the result of the USSR experiment.

    AlexWIWA,

    I’d rewrite the game engines for Command & Conquer games so that they could be modernized.

    It’s a perfectly doable task, but not with the amount of free time I have.

    9point6,

    I assume you already know, but the first two in the series got the “remastered” treatment a couple of years ago. I’m holding out hope that Tiberian Sun and RA2 are in the works getting the same treatment

    AlexWIWA,

    Yeah I’ve been wanting those so badly. If they open sourced red alert 2 I would be in heaven. I’d immediately start work on decoupling game speed from frame rate.

    I wish I could get the generals source code so I could fix the path finding, but until I’m rich enough to retire and remake the engine, or unless they open source it, I can’t do it :/

    9point6,

    There’s a godlike reverse engineer of the early c&c games out there called Nyerguds, I’m pretty sure he could give you a guided tour through the TD and RA binaries in Ida Pro at one point in time.

    I wonder if he ever put much time into the TS/RA2 engine, I know he wrote modding tools for them.

    AlexWIWA,

    Oh yeah he’s a god. I work with him on cncnet.

    9point6,

    Haha no way, I worked a little on that ages ago, I was Irony on the forums something like a decade ago

    AlexWIWA,

    I was never on the forums for cncnet sadly. I started contributing during early covid. I’ve been playing C&C since 2000 though

    AlexisFR,
    @AlexisFR@jlai.lu avatar

    OpenRA is already a thing, you could contribute to that.

    AlexWIWA,

    I’ve thought about it but their vision is pretty different from what I want to do. I want to keep red alert 2 fully original but decouple frame rate and game speed, and decouple resolution from zoom level.

    christophski,

    Is there a good C&C community in lemmy?

    Also, were you a member of PPM?

    9point6,

    This comment prompted me to have a look, a couple exist but have basically no content.

    I guess we need to be the change we want to see!

    christophski,

    Let’s pick one and post some content?

    9point6,

    Looks like !commandandconquer has the more activity of the ones I’ve seen (though not for a while)

    AlexWIWA,

    Yeah but I was never very active there.

    snek,

    I would be doing more programming and more open source work. I would also spend more time doing physical activities like sports. I wouldn’t mind doing gardening for anyone, I also wouldn’t mind automating all their systems. Definetely I’d sleep for one extra hour.

    DogMuffins,

    I think I would travel or wander a lot more. Not in an instagram backpacker kind of way, just in a dawdle from town to town road trippy kind of way.

    hoodatninja,
    @hoodatninja@kbin.social avatar

    I’ve wanted to RV across the US - spend 5-7 days in any given place - for so long.

    Fizz,
    @Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

    If I wasnt working a job for money I wouldn’t be doing anything that contributed to making food or providing infrastructure. What I did with my time would probably be considered useless by society and that’s why I’m not doing it as a job currently.

    matcha_addict,

    I too would never do anything to serve my interests or the interests of my community!

    Thank God for our capitalist overlords for keeping us in check. We thank them by making them even more mega rich.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    I'd do what I'm doing now but I'd be helping hospitals and schools instead of companies.

    matcha_addict,

    I feel the same about my job. I love what I do, I just wish it was targeted towards helping my community rather than generating profits for rich capitalists

    luke,

    Jesus Christ this post sucks

    hoodatninja,
    @hoodatninja@kbin.social avatar

    If only we had a voting system to express whether we thought a post meaningfully contributed or not!

    luke, (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    hoodatninja,
    @hoodatninja@kbin.social avatar

    If this community/instance bothers you so much there’s nothing stopping you from blocking it and subscribing to another one.

    matcha_addict,

    I’m sorry that a harmless question on askLemmy bothers you so much :(

    nicktron,
    @nicktron@kbin.social avatar

    luke's poor feefees. :(

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