@actuallyautistic
What's the deal with "keen sense of justice"? I am not sure what it's called in English, but I keep reading that it's an autism thing and I definitely have been accused of an "exaggerated" sense of justice or having too much of it. Why do we have that?
@snoopy_jay@actuallyautistic
1.not blunted by social adaptation to our culture, that has many mean things normalized
2. isntead beign heightened by hypermepathy and hypersensitivity plus 'autistic naivity'
(not sure if that last one goes under 1. or 2.
@snoopy_jay@actuallyautistic
My take is that it's because we are seeing society as a set of rules and performances in which all the pawns are equal, while allistic people see it more as a set of expanding connections.
Which can also make us more vulnerable to sexism and racism if we get it into our heads that some people are naturally inferior.
@snoopy_jay@actuallyautistic my personal theory is that as children, we all start out with a keen sense of justice but then NTs get desensitized to all the injustice around them, especially those which benefit themselves or their group, but autistic people tend to stay sensitive as is the case with other types of hypersensitivity common among them.
@CynAq@snoopy_jay@actuallyautistic
I’m inclined to agree. Some children with a strong sense of justice can still be cruel, thoughtlessly or deliberately, because they’ve somehow justified the cruelty in that case. Children can be very judgemental & cruel. Learning to care less is possibly a survival skill that many autistics fail to learn. We can’t fix everything or rescue everyone, trying to do so isn’t actually helpful in some cases for reasons we don’t see or understand, & comes at a great cost to ourselves. But to simply stop caring would be unthinkable.
@punishmenthurts@actuallyautistic No, it really doesn't matter if the question is posed as why do we or why do they. What I want to know is how the difference happens.
@snoopy_jay@punishmenthurts@actuallyautistic I'm not sure if we have a good enough understanding of the biology to answer why. I'm not an expert, just an individual with one experience. So I think I struggle to answer why for such a broad set of experiences without the biology. I liked the other comment about identity construction, but again, why is that Identity construction different ... I'm unsure. Sorry if I distracted from your intended question earlier.
@snoopy_jay it's related to us having a values-based identities vs group based identities.
When we have a value, we have a value and it's intrinsic. It's a violation of ourselves to do something that's against our values.
Allistics however generally root their identity in the groups they're in. They have values, but they're flexible and different based on the group (whether it's someone in the group doing it, whether the group approves/disapproves, how it impacts the group).
My go to example is "snitches":
For values-based identity we're reporting someone for doing wrong, calling out bad behavior so it can be addressed.
For group-based identity it's a violation to "snitch" on someone in the group, but fully encouraged when someone is outside the group.
@shiri I'm afraid you've lost me there in the first sentence. Why do we have a values-based identity vs group based identity? It sounds like everyone already knows, so maybe there's a link somewhere to get me up to speed?
@snoopy_jay If you're asking "why" it's observational really, someone pegged the concept and it made a lot of pieces fall in to place for a lot of people. There's even a study that accidentally showed evidence of it (of course, it was run by allistics, so they pathologized us having consistent values and morals as if it were a bad thing).
If you're asking what it is, in case you haven't seen it yet, here's a link that's a good source. neuroclastic.com/the-identity-…
(If you have, sorry for the late response, especially if you commented on it, my server is still catching up from being offline since Sunday from a disk failure)
To put it in my own words: the reason we have a "keen sense of justice", as well as partially a reason for "stubborn", "inflexible", and "strong opinions" is that our values are a core part of our identity. It causes cognitive dissonance in us to try and act in opposition to our values (which is only solved by either correcting the behavior, or fundamentally changing who we are).
Allistics on the other hand, while they do have values, they're not as intrinsic. Much more intrinsic to them is their collective or group identity. Acting against the groups in which they identify causes them cognitive dissonance, which makes the group significantly impact their actions and expressions of their values.
For example, while I do identify as Jewish, the core part of my identity is that I'm a convert (that I chose this path) and that the values of the Jewish faith align with my values. But that doesn't mean I automatically side with everything Jewish. It also means that these values and beliefs are just as strong in me day to day regardless of whether or not I'm actively participating in the Jewish community.
An allistic on the other hand who has a core identity of being Jewish is going to relate to it as the group. They need to be active participants in the community to maintain that identity. A major factor there is that they need to act in a way that aligns with how they perceive the community and those of importance and authority in it. So if the community holds a strong belief, they experience dissonance if they don't also hold that belief.
@snoopy_jay Of note, the difference in identities makes a huge difference in our lives:
Peer pressure is muted for us, we don't experience cognitive dissonance when our peer group is pressuring for something (we may still however feel pressure in the form of threat of rejection, or general fawning trauma)
We don't conform to group standards, because we don't respond to subtle low-key pressure to change behaviors, we don't change to blend with the group like allistics do
We have no intrinsic group loyalty, because the group isn't our identity, we have no qualms turning around and acting against the group when our values are at odds. (A lot of us struggle with the concept of "snitches" and why it's sometimes praised and oftentimes punished... because it's not about the rightness or wrongness of the action, but whether it's in-group or out-group)
We are consistent in our actions as our expression of values is not impacted by whether or not we're perceived (example: if we believe in tipping we'll tip the same whether or not we're visible in tipping, while an allistic is more inclined to tip better while being perceived doing so than when not)
Because allistics don't understand how we can appreciate a group but seek to challenge it, they interpret any challenge as us disliking or hating the group ("not a team player")
Because our values don't change from pressure, we're perceived as stubborn
Because we don't hold the community as part of our identity, we also don't respond very differently to varying degrees of social status which marks us as "disruptive", "disrespectful", or "divisive".
When communicating with others socially, we relate on values while they relate on social identity, this causes us to be seen as egocentric
Because we don't hold much weight at all in the collective/group identity we suffer if the group starts openly defying our values (we experience increasing degrees of dissonance, and if we have a value that tells us to act in opposition to the group then we're going to experience dissonance until we take that action. ie. we're more likely to be whistleblowers)
Obligatory groups (like family, hometown, high school, etc) in which people can't typically "leave", we're often seen as a threat because we refuse to conform. We get called "embarassing" or accused of actively trying to harm the group when we act in a non-conforming way.
@shiri Thank you for the explanation and the link. I had never heard of it. It's a bit of a shock, because if this is true it would not only explain why I've never been able to "find my people", but also will mean that I never will.
@snoopy_jay we can absolutely "find our people". It's usually fellow neurodiverse people who share similar values. (Other neurodivergencies tend to accomodate autistic social dynamics, unlike allistics)
I have a large chosen family that forms a tight nit group because we share values of care and support and our norms are autistic (for instance, we have two family rules: no apologizing for drifting away and no apologizing for taking up space)
@Susan60
Part of what makes it so good is how selective it is (I specifically put time and consideration into adopting people), so sorry, no @snoopy_jay
@Susan60@snoopy_jay sorry it was harsh, I'm just very picky about family and don't make the decision until after I've known someone very personally for a while. For me family isn't a metaphor for a close knit friend group, but these are people I've fallen deeply in love with and then adopted.
They're only a semi-cohesive unit because I made the mistake of putting a bunch of them in a group chat together one time and they've never let me live that down lol
Me and my roommate (both ND) share mostly similar values, we speak honestly to eachother about everything, and if anything bothers us about the other, we let eachother know, with words!
No guessing at hints or implications! Neither of us depend on implied communications.
We do use puns sometimes. Most times I prefer seriousness more than humor.
Roomie and I may 'break' some silence with some fart humor.
I toot!
Ba Dum Tss!
@GreenRoc just about everyone in my family is prone to disassociating and prone to excessive apologizing, the way we actually phrase the rules:
No apologizing for existing
No apologizing for not existing
It's important to me because so many people I care immensely about are prone to isolate themselves under stress, so some will disappear for months or even years... and the second rule is specifically to make clear that they can re-appear without guilt.
The first just because they'll keep asking if it's okay to share their experiences with someone who loves and supports them... like, yes, duh I want to know what's going on with you! Vent away!
@HaelusNovak@actuallyautistic
Yes, but why? How does this difference in sense of justice happen? I haven't seen any theories anywhere. (Or if I have, I've forgotten.)
@snoopy_jay@HaelusNovak@actuallyautistic my personal theory is that it's to do with pattern recognition Vs social motivation. Autistics tend to have sharp pattern recognition, so I think we're just more likely to be able to notice how patterns of injustice make everything shittier for everyone. On the flip side, NT's seem to be more sensitive to social inclusion/exclusion, so they're more likely to gloss over individual incidents in an attempt to minimise direct conflict in the moment
I've been told in some cultures nepotism isn't unjust, it's expected, because you'd have to be cruel & selfish to not help your kin.
I learned justice rules as absolutes, but others learn rules as guidelines that should obviously be departed from if it's to the advantage of one's in crowd. And while they don't like it, they're less outraged by the same from other groups, because they might well do the same.
@FrightenedRat@punishmenthurts@snoopy_jay@HaelusNovak@actuallyautistic well, pattern recognition is not the same as clairvoyance. We may be really good at building and analysing models in our heads, but any model is only as good as the data used to construct it. What I mean by this is that what we consider to be just and unjust is very dependent on what we believe to be true about the world. For ex autistic misogynists are more likely to be incels BC they believe women are naturally inferior
@poloniousmonk@FrightenedRat@punishmenthurts@snoopy_jay@HaelusNovak@actuallyautistic there are absolutely autistics out there with some nasty, bigoted ideas about the world. I think a large portion of us avoid common myths because they don't align with our experience. But privilege has a tendency to insulate from contradictory information so the more privileged you are, the more likely confirmation bias becomes a major roadblock to seeing reality as it is.
a) a significant portion of incels are autistic. I suspect what happens is the social overwhelm means they do not get out much and therefore lack natural opportunities to socialize with women and then when they do, they ofc fail to build rapport coz they are autistic and chances are they are talking to allistic women who ofc are on a completely different level
b)re class, we are only aware of our own class and the classes directly above and below us. We are completely ignorant of classes 3+ or 3- because we simply do not interact with those ppl, due to how class and class insulation works.
This class ignorance causes massive amounts of problems which are not due to malevolence but simply ignorance.
@poloniousmonk@Vincarsi@FrightenedRat@punishmenthurts@snoopy_jay@HaelusNovak@actuallyautistic i think for anyone (allistic or autistic) to have a completely correct mental model of class, they would need to live lives in every class. So some form of reincarnation, with memory intact and reconciled at the very end of it. And even then, it would only be applicable to that specific time in history since class dynamics changes with time.
Thank you for sharing. Tbh I don't understand though. Would you mind defining your terms?:
Middle Middle
Abssolute bottom
Self made top
In terms of net worth and income? Also nouveau riche vs blue blood if you feel it's applicable
Class is very subjective (for example, everyone, rich and poor seems to think they are Middle class haha) so I think it's useful to attempt to quantify.
The three classes--upper, middle, lower, all have three groupings within, which correlate with the 10th to 90th percentile, although my experience is that illusions/delusions are prevalent well above the 95th. 1/
I've only known one hereditary lord, and he was also devoid of illusions. He was an unapologetic reagan republican, and happy to step over the corpses of poor people when he walked the streets. It warmed his heart to know his family helped make that happen. I was speaking of the few people I've known, all white boomers, who made a small business into a multimillion dollar bank account.
Class is not subjective, people are just deluded. Social class is no more subjective than the shape of the planet. Even if the church kills everyone who knows it's a globe (circa 800CE or so), that doesn't /actually/ make it flat and under a dome.
ICYMI: everyone with a coast and a sailboat figured out the round earth thing 3k years ago, only the europeans forgot.
But when ppl say "middle class" they are generally talking about their parent class. Upper class= directly above. Lower class= directly below. Because ofc we are insulated from levels further removed.
TBH, I have no idea if 2x schoolteachers is middle/middle now. Probably higher. Teaching was a woman's job when I was young, and my parents were paid accordingly. They got about half of what someone with equal education would in private industry, but they worked half as much and now have pensions that put them in the top ten percent, globally. And the cadillac of health care.
Actually, I just got blocked by one. He hates Chappelle without having watched any of his stand up, and blocked me when I suggested he not tell an american Black person that having long hair in canada results in equivalent persecution.
I've lived in a society like that and it was so miserable and hopeless. They also saw every interaction as zero sum, which was mindbogglingly frustrating.
@FrightenedRat@punishmenthurts@Vincarsi@HaelusNovak@actuallyautistic
While I remember how horrible it was for me as a kid that everyone around me told me the rules were meant to be broken and I'd just have to keep quiet about it, I also wonder how much of my question got lost in translation. The German term I keep reading is "Gerechtigkeitssinn". This doesn't necessarily mean adhering to current laws, it can also mean to find current laws and rules to be unjust.
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