She’s Arab, and hated by her own people who want her dead, but holds fast to her programming and prejudices. Also every Arab nation has refused to help Palestinians or take them in, cause they don’t care about them either. It’s all talk, and she’s not gonna help Palestinians either.
The problem with "taking in" the Palestinians, is that it actively helps Israel's ethnic cleansing efforts and theft of land/property. Israel has stolen peoples homes, land, and livelihoods, and has been doing such since 1947.
You have to be careful with that sort of thing. Also, there are a fuckload of Palestinians, Most countries are not setup to absorb millions of extra citizens.
Even so, a lot of Palestinians have left the country over the decades, and have ended up in those same Arab nations you claim won't take them. The Arab nations just can't take millions at once.
We’ll have to nuke the place, honestly. Move everybody out, nuke the shit out of the whole holy land until it’s radioactive so they won’t want to move back. Otherwise, they’ll refuse to leave. That’s the only solution I see.
We have the technology to make a hologram of God, or to perform a fake miracle of some kind.
Make a fake miracle happen in Israel/Gaza where lots of Israelis and Palestinians can see it.
Get a bunch of Palestinians and Israelis to convert to a new peaceful religion where the only way to go to heaven is to treat everyone like you would treat your family, with love and respect. It would have to be a straightforward religion without all the mumbo jumbo left up for interpretation.
There are living 2 million people in gaza. Germany has currently 1 million Ukrainian refugees and poland also another million. So it is not like it would be impossible for the arab countries to absorb them.
I’m with you though when it comes to your point that they do not want to give up their presence as a thorn in Israel’s expansion. They (the Muslim Arab world) would never again gain a better bargain against Israel. Giving them the land would be a victory for Israel that would hang like a shadow over their history for centuries - or so they see it. The Arab world can (from a religious standpoint) never accept the jewish nation invading their sphere. If it were not for Israel, the Middle East would have formed a strong combined player in the geopolitical game. For some moments in the early 1900s it almost looked like syria were able to unite the Arab world to transform it into a single voice sitting in between asia and Europe. But external forces and internal ethnic differences and in the end the Israel state made it permanently impossible for the region to unite. The fallout is what we see today. If it were not for the religious aspect and the Arab world would have given Israel „its land“, it might would have even started relations with each others by now in economy and technology, being a vital partner in developing the Middle East. But both the arab world and Israel are the religious bigots that they are and that is hindering the evolutionary development in their own interest.
I I think the west knew how much the Arab world would chew on this for the next century when they bid to put Israel in that area. The power move by the Arab world would have been to accept it and create political relations with it to profit from this strong economic player. But some in the west knew that this would be impossible for them because of their deeply religious rooted society. It will keep the Middle East out of the game for another better half of half century. To profit from Israel would mean for the Arab world to transform their nations from a theocracy to a modern national state, where not religious doctrines are used to narrate to their people for control. But the people in power need the theocratic narration to stay in power. A strong Middle East would have been a United Middle East (Syria 1900s), where a national state is put above the theocratic narration to keep control of the people while benefiting hugely from trade and technology as religious differences is not hindering talks with one another anymore (Inside and outside). Israel would have never happen to a United Middle East and now they can never change because the differences is absorbed into their theocratic narration. They are locked into a limbo of not being able to progress - all because Israel.
Yeah it is weird that your link is not providing any information about why they did it. I would say the Wikipedia has a better text about it, while also not going to deep:
Your first have to understand the territorial occupations at the time of 1946 and who was invested in the region. After the ottoman empire fell Britain gained foot in the area of palestine around 1919. It was only possible by a coalition with the Arab neighbors in the region that were more fond of the british than the ottoman disarray.
After WW2, Britain had a big interest in keeping this area in control and not further develop conflicts in the area by the refugee of jewish people coming from the european camps, that would clash with the coalition partners from the arab countries in the region. The efforts made to create a jewish state was mostly driven by the US, and not britain:
In 1947, the UN adopted a partition plan for a two-state solution in the remaining territory of the mandate. The plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership but rejected by the Arab leaders, and Britain refused to implement the plan. On the eve of final British withdrawal, the Jewish Agency for Israel, headed by David Ben-Gurion, declared the establishment of the State of Israel according to the proposed UN plan.
You can see how britain lost control of the whole region the moment they gave in. Up until this moment they were still hoping to keep the jews out and keep the control of the country. That is the reason they blocked the Exodus. There is also a good take on the SS Exodus Article on britains stance until the caved into the UN Mandate:
Britain’s position was summed up by John Coulson, a diplomat at the British Embassy in Paris, in a message to the Foreign Office in London in August 1947: “You will realize that an announcement of decision to send immigrants back to Germany will produce violent hostile outburst in the press. … Our opponents in France, and I dare say in other countries, have made great play with the fact that these immigrants were being kept behind barbed wire, in concentration camps and guarded by Germans.”[56] Coulson advised that Britain apply as best they could a counter-spin to the story: “If we decide it is convenient not to keep them in camps any longer, I suggest that we should make some play that we are releasing them from all restraint of this kind in accordance with their wishes and that they were only put in such accommodation for the preliminary necessities of screening and maintenance.”[57] The mission of bringing the Jewish refugees of Exodus 1947 back to Germany was known in diplomatic and military circles as “Operation Oasis.”[55]
Gaza is extremely over populated and is inhabitated almost exclusively by Palestinians. Taking some of them (those who want) would not contribute to cleansing in any meaningful way. The truth is that Muslim countries don’t really care about the Palestinians other than using them as a political tool.
Look at what’s happened to the counties that did see influxes of Palestinians in the last century. Everytime it’s ended up with them kicking off more conflict in their host nations. Even the small disporia in the western world couldn’t help themselves but go out and celebrate these attacks and make antisemitic spectacles themselves. Why would anyone want them?
Consider the following fictional situation:
A news story comes out detailing a terrible tragedy where some people were stuck in a collapsed mine for months and that they had to eat one of their dead to survive. A horrible situation by all accounts. One of the miners is later interviewed and they mention how bad it was to have to eat someone. Someone then posts online saying this: “Next time it won’t taste so bad if you add some salt and pepper.”
Is the person who made the post condoning cannibalism? Of course not. Was the comment in poor taste? Absolutely. (Pun not intended)
“I just want to make it clear that this statement in no way shape or form is [inciting] spread of violence,” she said. "I specifically said freedom fighters because that’s what the Palestinian citizens are… fighting for freedom every day.
I just want to make it clear that this statement in no way shape or form is [inciting] spread of violence," she said. "I specifically said freedom fighters because that’s what the Palestinian citizens are… fighting for freedom every day.
Hamas as an organization doesn’t represent the Palestine people as whole, and an individual Hamas fighter even less so.
While your typical Palestine farmer might not be too fond of all the killing and murdering done by Hamas terrorists, atleast they’re killing and murdering the people they perceive to be most at fault for the situation they’re living in. Nobody can say, with a straight face, that there’s not atleast a kernel of truth behind that belief.
Still - indiscriminately killing innocent civilians is not the way.
In Gaza yeah. Not on the west bank which is the bulk of Palestine. If I remember correctly those elections were like 17 years ago and they got around 45% of the vote
You know there were a lot of folks who happened to be in New York City on September 11th, 2001, who happened to get the business end of some retaliation for the shitty things our country did during the Cold War. More so, a lot of them (if not all of them) distinctly didn't have any direct connection to the thing that was being retaliated for.
So do we get to take the innocent card from those folks who died that day? No? So curious as to the special circumstances that applies to the folks who are tired of Hamas' shit in the Gaza Strip but can't leave because Israel won't let them and they can't get rid of Hamas because they'll just kill them. What's the special case that means those people who are tired of this conflict don't matter or aren't worthy of being called oppressed?
And thus the circle is complete and peace unattainable.
You should perhaps remember that a few, very few, had a part in the terrorist attack and the terrorists have claimed to have done the crime for the exact same grievance in the other direction. If you pay attention you may discover that punishing those involved shall offend no one, where as blowing the fuck out of innocent People's homes in no way helps and is assured to get lots of condemnation.
Peace was never the goal to begin with. Violence begets violence. If they really wanted peace they should have negotiated and used politics and all kinds of different ways than killing people.
Yes, Israel would have had they wanted peace and security. Hamas, as a terrorist organization, has no such ability even if there were will to do so. Powers that Be want this on both sides.
Uhh, dude? Hamas is just a terrorist organization. They murdered a bunch of babies by cutting off their heads. You can support Palestine and oppose Israel’s settlements without carrying water for a group that does shit like that.
The only source of that "beheaded a bunch of babies" claim seems to be a "news" site called I24... A site that is mostly truthful when not talking about Israel and Palestine, but has flat out invented stories that push their pro-Isreal narrative,
Every other mention of the story so far seems to point back to that one site.
You’re kidding, right? So IDF soldiers who were interviewed as they were moving bodies out of the kibbutz were just lying?
Don’t do this. Don’t carry water for barbaric, inhuman acts like this. You can support Palestine’s freedom without condoning the beheading of children or trying to convince yourself it didn’t happen. Too many independent reports have corroborated it now. The BBC interviewed individual soldiers who had to deal with the insanity afterwards, and they’ll be scarred for the rest of their lives by what they’ve seen. Don’t belittle it.
And don’t belittle the Palestinian quest for freedom by defending monstrosity done in their name. Hamas isn’t Palestine.
Personally I would like it corroborated with bonafide evidence rather than word of mouth of a belligerent party. I’m skeptical, but only for the above. I imagine if there is truth to this that a human rights watch dog will seek the same proof.
But with that said, I didn’t need a report like that to condemn Hamas for this renewed conflict in the first place. This does absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians and absolutely everything to hurt them. Every way you slice this you just end up with senseless tragedy and loss of life on every side.
I just heard an interview with an Israeli who saw it firsthand, the interview was on CBS news. I think that’s a respectable enough organization to assume it’s true until proven otherwise by watchdogs.
At least they don’t tend to go around taking hostages and raping them. Honestly I was almost supportive of Hamas in this, before finding out that they’re behaving even worse than the animals they claim to be fighting. I think you loose all legitimacy when you go out of your way to cause unneeded harm
The beheading specifically are BS, it came from an Israeli-US propaganda channel where they repeated a lie from an IDF soldier. All the news outlets have used the same source, incredibly irresponsibly.
Lemmy automatically marks comments from mods as mod comments. This isn’t Reddit. I’m not talking as a mod, I’m just talking as me.
But it’s not IDF propaganda. It’s been confirmed by dozens of news outlets now. It happened. Stop carrying water for people who would do that. Hamas isn’t Palestine.
Did she actually do so? From whats posted here she made a poor taste joke criticizing their filming. While perhaps bad judgment, that alone isn't remotely supporting anything.
Maybe the hill you die on shouldn’t be murdering and executing innocent civilians there chief. Just a little tip for not being a complete piece of shit.
I mean you opened your mouth wide enough for your foot with that one. I don’t know what you expected to happen when commenting about a geopolitical situation that’s grown a gravity so large it’s collapsed in on itself to the point that because your comment doesn’t specify a side it can be validly used by someone on either side of the debate.
What they’re referring to deserves to be talked about and brought up as it is demonstrably intrinsic to a conversation concerning Israel-Palestine relations.
Had they brought up literally any other country it would be what-aboutism. You can’t just throw that term around every time someone issues a counterpoint that you don’t feel is valid.
Unless you are going back to the war with the Romans, the Jews were not a persecuted minority in that region any more than any other minority, which would include the Arabs themselves seeing as they were controlled by the Ottomans for hundreds of years previous. The Jews were tolerated, and there was a very small religious community living in Jerusalem during the hundreds of years of Ottoman control that got along perfectly fine. The greater diaspora, especially in Eastern Europe through the 18th and 19th centuries was, however, constantly persecuted and were victims of numerous pogroms.
The Zionist movement was a reaction to the fact that European countries could not be trusted. It was a common cycle that the Jews would make a living for themselves, beginning to think that they could finally establish a home but then get attacked, scapegoated, and forced to flee. It was the Eastern European Jews fleeing such pogroms who would make up the majority of the first settlers of the Zionist mission in Palestine.
All this is simply to say that when people claim “oh they’ve been fighting there for thousands of years” and “the Jews were being persecuted there for so long” is not accurate. There really has not been a Jewish presence in the region since the Jewish revolt was put down by the Romans 2,000 years ago. While the current conflict is decades old, it is entirely related to the circumstances around the founding of Israel.
This is not entirely accurate. For most of history Jews were tolerated in the region, but even then they were systematically discriminated against through the legal system that would for instance not allow a Jew to testify against a Muslim in court or subject jews and other minorities to taxes not levied on Muslims.
By the late 19th and early 20th century the Muslim world began engaging in the same sort of anti-semitism and pogroms that had mostly been limited to Europe prior. This did largely have its roots in the European influence on Middle Eastern nations but nevertheless the rise in anti-semitism(for lack of a better word since most parties are semitic) in the middle east predated the formation of Isreal in 1948.
It is certainly true that this discrimination was less than they faced in Europe for most of the history of the middle east, but being better than that is a very low bar.
"If you can look at the situation and not be on the side of Palestinians, then you are on the wrong side of apartheid and history will show that in time,"
This post on her part was fine, but the other one...not so much. She should have stuck with this one only, rather than whatever the frick murderous thing that other post was.
That’s the problem with a lot of the pro Palestine movement, they just can’t help themselves and can’t just stop at demanding rights, but wanting the rights of others removed as well. Western nations just aren’t going up empathize with you if you’re murdering and parading women’s corpses around, or if you’re threatening to kill hostages, many of which are children. As much as you may not like it, there’s a difference optically between dropping a bomb and putting a gun to a child’s head and pulling the trigger cause you didn’t get your way.
What does being Jewish have to do with Israel? Are you conflating the two? Blaming Jews for what Israel has been doing for decades is pretty anti-semetic.
No it’s just that Jews have gotten prickly about anyone criticizing Israel because of how much trouble anti-zionism has had banishing anti-semitism from trying to infiltrate.
It’s only changed because the Neonazis have absorbed enough evangelicals to decide they like the jews having Israel now because battle of Armageddon and “I know revelations says it is impossible to know when the rapture will happen but I’m gonna try and make it happen anyways like an absolute dumbass!”
Can someone please tell the freedom fighters in Palestine to flip their phones and film horizontal," she wrote on the platform on Saturday.
That’s all. If you’re very inattentive or deliberately misinterpreting her words, you’d think that she was endorsing Hamas as “freedom fighters”.
But if you DO pay attention and know anything, you’ll notice that she never mentions Hamas and know that Hamas aren’t usually the ones filming any of their atrocities. Add her clarification from a few days later and it’s clear that she did NOT endorse Hamas and is the victim of character assassination because she had the temerity to speak up against the apartheid regime:
I just want to make it clear that this statement in no way shape or form is [inciting] spread of violence," she said. "I specifically said freedom fighters because that’s what the Palestinian citizens are… fighting for freedom every day.
Nope. I’m merely refraining from assuming without evidence that she’s endorsing terrorism.
You don’t have to be “some kind of top geopolitical expert” to know that Hamas don’t tend to film their atrocities themselves and that oppressed Palestinians very often film the atrocities of the Israeli occupation forces.
If there’s any mental gymnastics here, it’s in confusing common knowledge for elite geopolitical expertise.
I think you don’t realise how little knowledge “common knowledge” actually is. Peolple on lemmee arent you’re average joe when it comes to geopolitical knowledge. I am not dismissing her knowledge eitherx but i believe you are overestimating it.
Yeah because a Lebanese-American public figure who sympathises with the plight of Palestine has NEVER had to answer bad faith arguments equating Hamas with all Palestinians and would thus have NO need for more knowledge about the methods of them than your average inattentive and incurious casual ingester of pro-regime billionaire-owned American news! 🙄
Hamas don’t tend to film their own atrocities and they’re not the only ones committing atrocities.
Israel is also committing atrocities and the oppressed citizens of Palestine are filming a lot of it. THAT’S the footage she asked to be recorded in landscape rather than portrait.
Perhaps still not in the best taste for a public platform, but it’s a damn sight better than endorsing terrorism like this article and others are incorrectly claiming.
You’re seriously asking why regular unarmed people are documenting human rights abuses rather than physically attack heavily armed soldiers who are in the middle of demonstrating how little Palestinian lives matter to them? Is that what you’re actually asking?
Also, who says it was said in the context of the latest Hamas atrocity? Judging by the actual words and sentences, it would seem much more likely to be in response to bad video of the retaliatory atrocities of the Israeli oppressors.
Seems like you’re very eager to tar and feather her for speaking up against your favorite ethnostate.
Why don’t “freedom fighters” don’t “fight” the atrocities rather than film them?
those regular civilians should hit the missiles with baseball bats, that’ll show 'em. Much more effective than filming the atrocities being inflicted upon them and spreading the word online!
In the largest apartheid concentration camp on earth, the civilian prisoners who document and expose their oppressors to the world are fighting for their freedom
Yeah I’M the stupid one, not the arrogant shit for brains whose sole contribution is to do a less intelligent version of Nelson Muntz at people who actually base their arguments on real world context coupled with reading the actual words rather than imagining completely different ones 🙄
There are other kinds of fighting than violence on a grand scale. Regular Palestinians are fighting the apartheid regime in ways big and small every day.
Yeah, I have this odd quirk of downvoting sealions when they ask bad faith questions with obvious answers that they refuse to accept. I’m kooky like that!
A good faith question is when you’re honestly seeking clarification either because you don’t know something or don’t know what the other person means.
Sealioning is when you’re “just asking questions” in a manipulative manner with no intention of taking the answers seriously under consideration or making a valid point of your own.
It’s often used in place of an actual argument when the sea lion knows that their point isn’t strong enough to withstand scrutiny.
The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade is the militant wing of Fatah, the al-Quds Brigades are the militant wing of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the DFLP is also active as the Martyr Omar Al-Qasim Forces.
Keep in mind she was a Lebanese refugee that lived through the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel. I’m not condoning anything she said but she has a somewhat understandable view of the whole situation.
Hamas committed atrocities and Israel has responded with atrocities. That doesn’t make calling Hamas “freedom fighters” in this context any less deplorable.
I don’t think she was refering to Hamas as freedom fighters. Everybody was just eager to put it in her mouth (eh).
Answering your question, yes, we can condemn them both. But in different ways.
Israel “created” Hamas. You can only push a people so far. The oppression and humiliation, generation after generation is bound to create extreme hate. And that’s how shit like Hamas sprouts. Israel has been breeding that hate for decades.
But…Hamas actions are still their own. I can live in a world with Israel if Israel changes. But Hamas has to go. But something else will appear if Israel keeps pushing on the Palestinians. Hamas is a symptom.
The cycle of violence has to be broken. And the one that has the upper hand has to do it to be effective. The 2 state solution is dead. It’s ironic that these 2 peoples can’t live with each other but at the same time they need each other.
Palestine is too fractured to thrive without Israel. Israel, while it might not seem so, needs to make good with Palestine to consolidate its place in the region. Without that peace Israel is doomed on the long term. When the chips are down and the US is not there to help they will find themselves completely isolated surrounded by hostile countries. And that Israel cannot survive.
I’m surprised too. That said, I wish Christie Hefner’s plan for making a separate issue without the girls came to fruition. Playboy has always had excellent interviews and fiction. People like Margaret Atwood and Kurt Vonnegut wrote for Playboy. I have a Playboy anthology of science fiction and it’s terrific.
Unfortunately, Playboy is usually just looked at as a lurid skin rag.
“Get things done” is incredibly baby-brained liberal idealism. Worse, it’s awfully close to an Umberto Eco warning signal about “action for action’s sake” which coincides with liberal idealism. That’s why so much western entertainment is loaded with “the Adults In The Room” who “Get Shit Done” and that shit getting done is usually atrocities justified by the plot.
I work with a group based in India. They have a completely different culture around messaging. Things I would consider worthy of an email comes as a message from them (i.e. doesn't need immediate attention/ escalation).
They are also very formal when initiating new messages, almost like they're following the same social standards as if they met you in the hallway (e g. Hi, how are you? Btw, I have this thing I need to talk to you about.). Mind you, this is all the time after exchanging dozens of messages a day.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, just lends some credence to what Musk said.
In particular, see the bits on ‘Net neutrality criticism’ and ‘Impact’
TLDR: Accessing Facebook is easier or even free, accessing the rest of the internet costs money. Thus making it so poorer communities only use Facebook, and say that “Facebook is the Internet”
Few quotes:
In 2015, researchers evaluating how Facebook Zero shapes information and communication technology use in the developing world found that 11% of Indonesians who said they used Facebook also said they did not use the Internet. 65% of Nigerians, 61% of Indonesians, and 58% of Indians agree with the statement that “Facebook is the Internet”
[Internet.org] has been criticized for violating net neutrality, and by handpicking internet services that are included, for discriminating against companies not in the list, including competitors of Meta Platforms’ subsidiary Facebook.[5][6] In February 2016, regulators banned the Free Basics service in India based on “Prohibition of Discriminatory Tariffs for Data Services Regulations”.[7] The Telecom Regulatory Authority of India (TRAI) accused Facebook of failing to pass on the four questions in the regulator’s consultation paper and also blocking access to TRAI’s designated email for feedback on Free Basics.[8][9] On February 11, 2016, Facebook withdrew the Free Basics platform from India.[10] In July 2017, Global Voices published the widespread[11][12] report[13][14] “Free Basics in Real Life” analyzing its practices in Africa, Asia and Latin America, and concluding it violates net neutrality, focuses on “Western corporate content”,[11] and overall “it’s not even very helpful”.[12]
Here is a list of the countries, at least for Facebook Zero:
List of countriesJordan: Zain Jordan Albania: Telekom Albania; Vodafone Albania Algeria: Djezzy;[14] Mobilis Angola: Unitel S.A. Bosnia and Herzegovina: ERONET Bangladesh: Grameenphone Benin: MTN Group Cameroon: MTN Group Canada: Freedom Mobile Croatia: Bonbon;[15] Hrvatski Telekom;[16] MultiPlus Mobile;[17] Simpa;[18] Tomato;[19] Vipnet El Salvador: Movistar Fiji: Digicel France: SFR Germany: E-Plus[20] Ortel Greece: WIND Hellas[21] Georgia: MagtiCom Guinea: MTN Group Indonesia: XL Axiata Kenya: Airtel Kenya Kosovo: iPKO Malaysia: DiGi Morocco: Maroc Telecom Nepal: Ncell[22] Pakistan: Telenor Pakistan; Jazz Pakistan, Zong Pakistan[23][24][25][26] Palestine: Jawwal[27] Panama: Cable & Wireless Communications Philippines: Globe Telecom, Smart,[28] Poland: Play[29] Qatar: Vodafone Qatar Saudi Arabia: Saudi Telecom Company[30] South Africa: CellC (Discontinued the service), Vodacom, MTN Group Suriname: Digicel Trinidad and Tobago: Digicel United Arab Emirates: Du[31] United Kingdom: Three Zimbabwe: Telecel Zimbabwe Zambia: Airtel Zambia
Nearly everyone I know from India uses WhatsApp so this statement checks out. I wish my own friends and family would stop using iMessage/SMS and use something like Signal. The only other app they use is Snapchat and I kinda hate that one.
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